Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 17 to 32 of 32

Thread: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

  1. #17
    Bows out! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Hopefully somewhere less backstabby
    Posts
    28,789
    Thanks
    3,203
    Thanked
    4,456 times in 3,442 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    The US and its financially efficient healthcare system!! Actually,I think I might have been daydreaming the last part.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  2. #18
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,147
    Thanks
    798
    Thanked
    2,151 times in 1,407 posts

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by phil4 View Post
    I agree with that example, but I think I cited two examples (bin collection and road repair), both of which here are outsourced at considerable cost. Wondered your view on those two?
    Worked well in some places. Just because something has been badly privatised, doesn't mean that giving the inept muppet who did that more power will make things better.

    Road repair is an odd one, as I live in London, so some are TFL others my local council. Both are truly terrible. The one that pisses me off, is we let people dig up the road for cable (I want broadband as much as the next man!) but then let them do a dodgy repair that lasts 1 year at most. There should be better fines for peoples work. They should have to post bonds or collateral of some kind, to ensure the value of the repair. If it is carried out by a 3rd party or council owned doesn't matter.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  3. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    272
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked
    18 times in 17 posts
    • phil4's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Sabertooth Z77
      • CPU:
      • Core i7-3770K @ 4.6Ghz
      • Memory:
      • 16Gb Corsair Dominator Platinum @ 1866Mhz
      • Storage:
      • OS: OCZ Vertex 4 256Gb, Data: 3Tb Seagate HDD, Cache: OCZ Agility 4 128Gb
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 2 x EVGA GTX 680 SC
      • PSU:
      • 750W Corsair Pro Series AX
      • Case:
      • Corsair Obsidian 650D Black
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Ultimate 64Bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell U2410 Ultrasharp
      • Internet:
      • Plusnet Fibre Unlimited 76/20

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Agree with the digging up.

    And to balance my statements, I've no faith in anyone from local council to government ministers actually being able to do a good job.

    So dilemma on my example is either pay shed loads to some shareholders or pay almost as much for a shoddy job that costs so much due to ineptness.

    Hmmmm.

  4. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,690
    Thanks
    93
    Thanked
    68 times in 61 posts
    • pp05's system
      • Motherboard:
      • AsRock Fatal1ty B450 Gaming itx
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 3 2200G
      • Memory:
      • Ballistix Elite 8GB Kit 3200 UDIMM
      • Storage:
      • Kingston 240gb SSD
      • PSU:
      • Kolink SFX 350W PSU
      • Case:
      • Kolink Sattelite plus MITX
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    It started under last Tory government under Major, carried on under Blair and now back to Tory to take it further. They tried to assuage doubters fear of privatization by capping the amount of private activity allowed within NHS (I think 10-15%) but the damage is done.

    Reality the government - any government- faces with the NHS in its present form will swallow up the whole sum of nations tax revenue within next two decades if things are left as is, at a time of declining tax receipts.

  5. #21
    Senior Member Pob255's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The land of Brum
    Posts
    9,964
    Thanks
    580
    Thanked
    1,199 times in 1,102 posts
    • Pob255's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus M5A99X EVO
      • CPU:
      • PhenomII x4 955 & CM Hyper 212+
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4gb Corsair Vengence 1600mhz cas9
      • Storage:
      • 250gb SATA Westerndigital + 500gb samsung +1tb Samsung
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus GTX560ti CuII
      • PSU:
      • Be Quiet E9 680w
      • Case:
      • HAF 912+
      • Operating System:
      • W7 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 21" ips something

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    The only problem with that is that when the road is dug up to repair some pipe, it's not the council that does it, it's the private firms (gas/water/electric) they sub contract the actual work out as cheaply as possible because unless it's planned work, as there's actually rules about the number of times a road can be dug up for planned work, you'll generally find it's with 6 months of it being resurfaced, unless it's emergency repairs which actually carries a fee chargeable to the council.

    Sorry but privatisation is a massively mixed bag, because it depends on the company saying all private companies can do a better job cheaper is just a great example I know about here (because my mother used to work for them) is thames water, she joined them in the early 90's a few year after they where privatised,one of the big reasons for the privatisation of the water companies was that they needed large scale investment to modernise.
    At first it was good, a lot of work was done on the storage and pumping side, but the pipe network was a major issue, a lot of the minor pipes that where thought to have another 10 years where failing and needed major work, a lot more investment was needed so it was sold off by the major stock holders to RWE (a german utility company)
    The company was "restructured", read massive lay off's and voluntary redundancies, especially in the work crews who where replaced by subcontracted cheap inexperienced labour, some investment was done but mainly in piping to new housing developments not replacement to old failing pipes.
    Profits where up, emergency leaks got patched, tons of water was still being lost to a growing myriad of minor leaks, But who cares? the improved storage and pumping systems could cope.
    They were only forced to really start addressing the issue when the fines on the leaks was increased and they started losing money.
    More rounds of layoff's and voluntary redundancies followed (this is when my mother took early retirement)
    Eventually it was so bad RWE sold it to Kemble who have had to sink billions into it but who have got it out of the red.

    I'm not saying privatisation or all private companies are bad, just that it's not always a good thing ether.

    One thing I do like is the way, in this blood example, a 20% stake is being kept public, so the public purse will get a cut, that's suspiciously long term thinking for government.

  6. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    821
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked
    32 times in 29 posts
    • flearider's system
      • Motherboard:
      • asrock taichi x370
      • CPU:
      • ryzen 1700@4ghz
      • Memory:
      • 16gb gskill flare cl14 3200
      • Storage:
      • 500mb 850 evo + 1tb hd space
      • Graphics card(s):
      • gigabyte r9 290
      • PSU:
      • evga 850
      • Case:
      • LD PC-V8 ATX/HPTX Red 2xtripple 1xquad rads
      • Operating System:
      • win 7 ulti
      • Monitor(s):
      • toshiba 32"
      • Internet:
      • 65 d/30 up ee

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    if we stopped the lobbying the pay off's little brown packets do you think this would still happen ??
    for one side it's about greed for the other it's about control ...
    What does it matter now if men believe or no?
    What is to come will come. And soon you too will stand aside,
    To murmur in pity that my words were true
    (Cassandra, in Agamemnon by Aeschylus)

    To see the wizard one must look behind the curtain ....

  7. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,613
    Thanks
    147
    Thanked
    314 times in 252 posts
    • badass's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS P8Z77-m pro
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 3570K
      • Memory:
      • 32GB
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Samsung 850 EVO, 2TB WD Green
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon RX 580
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520W
      • Case:
      • Silverstone SG02-F
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 X64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Del U2311, LG226WTQ
      • Internet:
      • 80/20 FTTC

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    Not quite, many of the "too big to fail" where just that, the bank are a great example, if they did collapse our entire social and economic structure would of gone with it, we would of gone through a period of anarchy before a new system arose.
    I keep hearing that kind of line but I haven't heard anyone explain how that was the only option, now how total collapse would occur as a result of the gov't letting them collapse.

    I disagree. I believe they would have gone into administration like any other company. Since they are so big, no one could have bought them. Thus they would have been broken up and the parts auctioned off. Of course, investors in the shares directly would have lost money to which I say "the price of your investment may go down as well as up" but one of the real big concerns would be pension funds, creditors and savers. These are examples of stakeholders that should have had government bailouts. Of course, finer detail would be needed for any plan but I believe that whilst the initial downturn would have been worse, by the time the downturn was 3-4 years old, the removal of the parasitic leeches from the economy would be complete enough that it would be a lot healthier.
    House prices would have completely collapsed but the government could have had a scheme where any losses to individuals for their primary residence from house price collapse are 90% covered by the government. So far the bank of england has spent £375 billion inflating the price of government bonds, effectively giving money to bondholders. That money could have been used to finance the bailouts of more appropriate parties.
    "In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penises, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship."

  8. #24
    jim
    jim is offline
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,357
    Thanks
    606
    Thanked
    1,593 times in 1,267 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    I have no issue with privatisation as a concept, but I don't understand how it makes sense when the market precludes competition.

    So for British Airways, I get it. There's nothing to prevent new airlines taking over part of their business, and competition drives the industry. Fine.

    But electricity? We've still only got one supplier - the National Grid. And there's a whole bunch of pointless middle-men who fritter away millions on referral fees, dividends, salesmen, and advertising. Gas and water are much the same.

    Telecommunications is not much better - we've gone from having one in BT, to two in BT and Virgin Media. There are a whole bunch of middlemen again, but they're just piggybacking off BT in the most part. And they always will, because we simply can't have endless numbers of cables running into houses for each supplier, and it would never be economical.

    Railways are even more stupid in my eyes, since services are usually restricted to a single operator.

    I struggle to see the benefits. And if the only excuse is that government is rubbish at running these things in an economical manner, then that's what needs fixing - not just taking everything out of their hands.

  9. #25
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    I keep hearing that kind of line but I haven't heard anyone explain how that was the only option, now how total collapse would occur as a result of the gov't letting them collapse.

    I disagree. I believe they would have gone into administration like any other company. Since they are so big, no one could have bought them. Thus they would have been broken up and the parts auctioned off. Of course, investors in the shares directly would have lost money to which I say "the price of your investment may go down as well as up" but one of the real big concerns would be pension funds, creditors and savers. These are examples of stakeholders that should have had government bailouts. Of course, finer detail would be needed for any plan but I believe that whilst the initial downturn would have been worse, by the time the downturn was 3-4 years old, the removal of the parasitic leeches from the economy would be complete enough that it would be a lot healthier.
    House prices would have completely collapsed but the government could have had a scheme where any losses to individuals for their primary residence from house price collapse are 90% covered by the government. So far the bank of england has spent £375 billion inflating the price of government bonds, effectively giving money to bondholders. That money could have been used to finance the bailouts of more appropriate parties.
    Because banking is the grease that keeps the wheeks turning, and because about the only thing that keeps money worth anything is confidence that it is.

    Think bank to the days of the queues outside Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley. People, not surprisingly, panic at the notion of a luquidity crisis, let alone a solvency crisis, and that's just two banks, one of which was relatively tiny. But, start that with Halifax or NatWest, etc, and you're staring at a bank meltdown, and very likely, not just of one bank but ALL of them.

    Remember the situation. Banks didn't even trust each other enough to lend between themselves.

    It's inherent in the way modern banks work, with hugely leveraged balanced sheets. None of them, probably now but certainly back then, can survive a massive call on deposits to be repaid, now, in cash, UNLESS they can borrow to do it because they just don't have the liquidity.

    And bank runs, once started, take on a life of their own. Even if they are fundamentally sound, TV pictures of queues causes more queues, because people won't take the risk of being the one left standing when the music stops. That collapse of confidence results in even sound banks having to close their doors if they cannot cover cash demands.

    And the whole point of the crisis, and why banks wouldn't lend to banks, was that the sub-prime disaster, and "securitisation" of assets, is that nobody, including the banks, knew what their own assets were actually worth .... and to a fair degree, still don't. Hence, banks not lending to other banks, or doing so at very high rates.

    So, banks close. Not just one, but several, maybe all. Any money you have deposited could be lost, any bonds you have becone worthless, companies with deposits lose them, companies with cash on overnight markets lose it, so investment ceases, payrolls can't be met because the funds on deposit cease to exist, unemployment rockets. No business will supply goods to any other company on credit, because too many are failing, and as the government didn't step in to protect money, we could well lose all faith in money and end up with a barter economy, or only gold, or dollars, become acceptable 'money'. Oh, and rampant inflation, too.

    And forget pensions, because a lot of the assets pension funds consist of ceased to exist.

    And if Halifax BoS had closed it's doors, that may have been the result. Economic meltdown, because the trust and confidence that underlies just about all aspects of a modern economy were exposed as the Emperor's new clothes.

    The fact is, if a bank like HBoS had gone down, it's unknowable how far the damage would have spread, but that doomsday scenario, while not certain, was certainly plausible. And we came within a few hours away from finding out. By which I mean, 5 or 6 hours.

  10. #26
    Moderator chuckskull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The Frozen North
    Posts
    7,713
    Thanks
    951
    Thanked
    690 times in 463 posts
    • chuckskull's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Z77-D3H
      • CPU:
      • 3570k @ 4.7 - H100i
      • Memory:
      • 32GB XMS3 1600mhz
      • Storage:
      • 256GB Samsung 850 Pro + 3TB Seagate
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA GTX 980Ti Classified
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic M12 700W
      • Case:
      • Corsair 500R
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Asus VG278HE
      • Internet:
      • FTTC

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Related; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23401074

    David Cameron faces fresh questions about his election strategist Lynton Crosby after it emerged his lobbying firm advised private health companies at the time of NHS reforms.

    Mr Crosby's company told a group of private healthcare providers how to exploit perceived "failings" in the NHS, the Guardian reported.

    Labour frontbencher Andy Burnham called it a "shocking conflict of interest".

    A Conservative spokesman said Mr Crosby had never lobbied the prime minister.
    Love to know how many of the companies he advised how to exploit the NHS got contracts.

    Sure, blood is emotive, but it is a commodity, the same way saline is privatised or the needles or the tubing.
    If it's a commodity I'd like to know what Bain Capital will paying per pint for my next visit. Currently all blood is provided as a charitable donation, you'll excuse me if I get offended by my charitable donations being used for private profit rather than the benefit of those I donated to.

  11. #27
    Account closed at user request
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Elephant watch camp
    Posts
    2,150
    Thanks
    56
    Thanked
    115 times in 103 posts
    • wasabi's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B85M-G43
      • CPU:
      • i3-4130
      • Memory:
      • 8 gig DDR3 Crucial Rendition 1333 - cheap!
      • Storage:
      • 128 gig Agility 3, 240GB Corsair Force 3
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Zotac GTX 750Ti
      • PSU:
      • Silver Power SP-S460FL
      • Case:
      • Lian Li T60 testbanch
      • Operating System:
      • Win7 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • First F301GD Live
      • Internet:
      • Virgin cable 100 meg

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    Related; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23401074



    Love to know how many of the companies he advised how to exploit the NHS got contracts.



    If it's a commodity I'd like to know what Bain Capital will paying per pint for my next visit. Currently all blood is provided as a charitable donation, you'll excuse me if I get offended by my charitable donations being used for private profit rather than the benefit of those I donated to.

    Perhaps if people were paid for blood, there would be more of it readily available?

    Win-Win.

  12. #28
    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    19,159
    Thanks
    733
    Thanked
    1,605 times in 1,044 posts

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    Perhaps if people were paid for blood, there would be more of it readily available?

    Win-Win.
    It's an interesting area - there are several papers on the subject. A quick search brings up: http://www.voxeu.org/article/blood-m...blood-donation

    Importantly, we find that a monetary reward reduced the probability of donation consistent with the crowding out hypothesis, whilst a non-monetary reward consistently with a normal supply curve suggests a positive and significant effect on the donation probability.
    Interestingly, paying people doesn't get the increases most people expect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

  13. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,690
    Thanks
    93
    Thanked
    68 times in 61 posts
    • pp05's system
      • Motherboard:
      • AsRock Fatal1ty B450 Gaming itx
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 3 2200G
      • Memory:
      • Ballistix Elite 8GB Kit 3200 UDIMM
      • Storage:
      • Kingston 240gb SSD
      • PSU:
      • Kolink SFX 350W PSU
      • Case:
      • Kolink Sattelite plus MITX
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post



    Interestingly, paying people doesn't get the increases most people expect.
    Doesn't surprise me because donating blood is as personal you can get. It would come under social. Doing something for a cause bigger than yourself, money would cheapen it.

  14. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,690
    Thanks
    93
    Thanked
    68 times in 61 posts
    • pp05's system
      • Motherboard:
      • AsRock Fatal1ty B450 Gaming itx
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 3 2200G
      • Memory:
      • Ballistix Elite 8GB Kit 3200 UDIMM
      • Storage:
      • Kingston 240gb SSD
      • PSU:
      • Kolink SFX 350W PSU
      • Case:
      • Kolink Sattelite plus MITX
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    I have no issue with privatisation as a concept, but I don't understand how it makes sense when the market precludes competition.

    So for British Airways, I get it. There's nothing to prevent new airlines taking over part of their business, and competition drives the industry. Fine.

    But electricity? We've still only got one supplier - the National Grid. And there's a whole bunch of pointless middle-men who fritter away millions on referral fees, dividends, salesmen, and advertising. Gas and water are much the same.



    I struggle to see the benefits. And if the only excuse is that government is rubbish at running these things in an economical manner, then that's what needs fixing - not just taking everything out of their hands.
    I agree.

    There are some areas where it would be better under the government particularly energy.

    When you have a monopoly the only thing left to do is sell your wares under individuals personal branding. It is still BT, they still get paid but it allows more people doing their legwork locally.

    Water should never have been privatized. Thames Water - they haven't invested at all. Just been sitting counting the money. Same with student loans - it is a govt asset in the long-term but they want to sell it off to banks for short-term gain under the 'times are tough' mantra in the near future.

  15. #31
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,147
    Thanks
    798
    Thanked
    2,151 times in 1,407 posts

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    If it's a commodity I'd like to know what Bain Capital will paying per pint for my next visit. Currently all blood is provided as a charitable donation, you'll excuse me if I get offended by my charitable donations being used for private profit rather than the benefit of those I donated to.
    It probably already is, my understanding is that people who need it for private procedures, including say cosmetic, buy it from the same market.

    Not to mention the people who profit from the needle (disposable!) that is used, the bag, the tubing. They all profit from your charity and damned decency (they won't take my blood as I often take an Asthma drug they dislike). However you also get some useful help, free screening, and certain markers are checked as standard.

    For the main body of your post, you might want to have a shifty over here:
    http://order-order.com/2013/07/23/th...comment-about/
    It appears someone might have miss-understood who one of the lobbying firms were.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  16. #32
    Account closed at user request
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Elephant watch camp
    Posts
    2,150
    Thanks
    56
    Thanked
    115 times in 103 posts
    • wasabi's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B85M-G43
      • CPU:
      • i3-4130
      • Memory:
      • 8 gig DDR3 Crucial Rendition 1333 - cheap!
      • Storage:
      • 128 gig Agility 3, 240GB Corsair Force 3
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Zotac GTX 750Ti
      • PSU:
      • Silver Power SP-S460FL
      • Case:
      • Lian Li T60 testbanch
      • Operating System:
      • Win7 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • First F301GD Live
      • Internet:
      • Virgin cable 100 meg

    Re: "Is there no limit to what and how this coalition government will privatise?”

    Handing over a natural monopoly to the private sector seems foolhardy (water / power). You need a degree of real competition to make it work.

    I've worked in the Quango sector for years, I have seen massive benefits to the public where our resource allocation people were able to outsource work to contractors rather than rely on in-house staff. Flexibility to deal with peaks and troughs of demand, and sheer value for money labour compared to bureacratically encumbered public sector staff.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •