Offensive "Christmas"

[Alex]

Sorry, I didn't mean to get that defensive! It's just that my faith means a lot to me, and when people throw it back at me with a 'stupid bible-bashing Christians' sort of idea, it gets to me a bit. I know that Christianity is not the only source of good people (and in my experience also a source of bad ones) and that Christmas isn't the only time when people are good, but Christmas is nonetheless a Christian festival. I don't see why in an offficially Christian country we should be ashamed to have a Christian festival, and call ita Christian festival? Everyone can celebrate it however they want, and it's a great time of year whether you are a Christian or not, but all Christians want remembered is what the Christian festival is all about.

Anyway, HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!

[Barakka]

Personally don't see what all the fuss is about...

As many people have said, Christmas is no longer about a religious celebration as a getting together of friends and family to celebrate together. It's something that we (as humans) have done for thousands of years - celebrating the part of Winter where the days cease getting shorter and start getting longer. Winter celebrations and feasting etc. is something that's part of most religions (Greek, Jewish, Christian, Pagan)

In fact wasn't the date of Dec 25th chosen to put a Christian face on the Pagan festivals that were happening every Winter around that time? Don't remember the bible actually mentioning the date of Christ's birth...

And as for Christmas being offensive due to it being Christ-mas and a celebration of the birth of Christ, so what? is it not true that Christ is part of a great many religions, not neccessarily as the Son of God, but a prophet. Personally don't see where the offence can come from.

But don't get me started on the use of XMAS or Crimbo

[luap.h]

that does my head in too, even when sending a text message, I make sure that spell it Christmas, even if I run into 2 texts! It just sums up the commercialism of Christmas for me 'xmas' - saves them a few pence on the inkjet or something

[Barakka]

that does my head in too, even when sending a text message, I make sure that spell it Christmas, even if I run into 2 texts! It just sums up the commercialism of Christmas for me 'xmas' - saves them a few pence on the inkjet or something

Interesting that one... know a few people that also get annoyed with the use of XMAS. But strangely enough the use of XMAS as an abbreviation can actually be traced back to the 11th Century when it was XPMAS (For heavens sake don't tell Micro$oft ), the X is thought to stand for the Greek letter "Chi" - the first part of the Greek word for Christ (Christos).

Although I agree with you that the problem I have with XMAS is not that it's removing the religious reference, but just that it's plain lazy.....

As for CRIMBO..... wouldn't be so bad if people used it properly and understood that to be gramatically correct it must have "Yeah But No, But Yeah" before and after it

AV A MRY XMAS EVRYBDY

[Zedmeister]

AV A MRY XMAS EVRYBDY

KILL HIM!!!

[RVF500]

Personally I am offended by the fact that divali and eid and whatever other religious festival are to be respected by one and all but my own religious festival is considered offensive. Regardless of the origins Christmas has been celebrated in this country for over a thousand years and has never been found to be offensive before.

A friends niece has had her school nativity play stopped under this new 'code' yet her school has arranged a number of trips to a local mosque, 5 to date. The parents only found out when their daughter kept asking for a headscarf. The school didn't bother to inform them. This is a largely Christian country yet it seems trendy and fashionable to dis our religion in favour of that of minority groups. So much for tolerance and equality, I always thought that meant the same rules for everyone and that everyone should be able to follow their own beliefs, or lack of them. Unless of course you happen to be Christian.

[Stewart]

This is a largely Christian country yet it seems trendy and fashionable to dis our religion in favour of that of minority groups.

Only amongst middle-class, Lefty, Guardian readers, who get offender on behalf on the minorites, of course. Still, its a few more votes for the BNP at the next election... when will these people learn?

So much for tolerance and equality.

Don't let the b*stards grind you down mate. The vast majority of us still has some common sense.



And Rave, me old mate, if all you can do to stop me 'going off on one' is to constantly claim that the person must be mistaken everytime someone comes on the forums to tell us of yet another example of PC gone mad, then I wouldn't hold out much hope.

[Zathras]

So much for tolerance and equality, I always thought that meant the same rules for everyone and that everyone should be able to follow their own beliefs, or lack of them. Unless of course you happen to be Christian.

Oh come on. Nativity plays are held in something like 85% of primary schools across the UK, whether they're a church school or not (http://www.mori.com/polls/2004/tes.shtml). How many hold Eid plays or Hanukah plays as the major (and in most cases only) school drama production? I'm of the opinion that we should separate religion and schools completely, unless you go to a privately-funded religious school if it's so important to you. Schools should teach about religious beliefs and practises but it shouldn't be a school's job (read a comprehensive or county school, not a CE/RC/Islamic one) to promote any one religion or take part in religous indoctrination, especially to kids as young as five. Church and the state should be kept separate in my mind. If you want to go to church (or the mosque or synagogue or wherever) then no-one's stopping you, but please don't force it on others.

[Stewart]

OI'm of the opinion that we should separate religion and schools completely, unless you go to a privately-funded religious school if it's so important to you.

Agreed 100%

[Zathras]

Agreed 100%

Wow, that doesn't happen every day. Must be because it's Winterval Oh I hate that word completely and utterly before anyone goes off on one. It's Christmas, and whether you're Christian or not it is as everyone's said an established tradition that religious and non-religious people can enjoy alike.

[RVF500]

I'm not forcing it on anyone. My, point if you'd bothered to read it, was that while one item was stopped another opposite one was added. The school is, as I understand it, a CoE school. My other point is while expressions of Christianity is being seen as offensive, overt expressions of other religions are encouraged.

Zathras, if you want to be aetheist then that's fine I really don't care, but don't shove your non-beliefs down my throat. I don't care what religion an individual is, someone's beliefs are their own and shouldn't be questioned by another. Nor branded as stupid by someone who doesn't believe the same. Just be happy that you can follow your belief, or lack thereof, without persecution. There are still countries in which converting from the state religion is punishable by death. Overtly proclaiming your aetheism would bring the same result.

Religion should be taught at school. You were taught it and so was vaul. You have taken a view that you don't believe in it and have chosen your own path. At least you had the choice. Don't assume the rest of the country is stupid and unable to make up their own mind on the subject.

I have a question for you zathras. Have you ever been in a position where you have had to face up to your own mortality, or imminent departure from it? I only ask because it takes a particularly strong mind to be able to do that and maintain an aetheist outlook. There is a saying, you may have heard it. There aren't many aetheists in a fire trench (slit trench....whatever).

[RVF500]

It's Christmas, and whether you're Christian or not it is as everyone's said an established tradition that religious and non-religious people can enjoy alike.

Well we can agree on that. Just needs whichever busybody at whatever department to figure that out and to leave people the hell alone and stop meddling.

[Zathras]

I'm not forcing it on anyone. My, point if you'd bothered to read it, was that while one item was stopped another opposite one was added. The school is, as I understand it, a CoE school. My other point is while expressions of Christianity is being seen as offensive, overt expressions of other religions are encouraged.

If you had bothered to read my post, you'd see I never clained you were trying to force anything on anyone. I also fail to see how visiting a mosque can be seen as expressing an overt expression of another religion - it is an educational visit to understand how other people worship. It hardly equates to an all-including activity such as a school play where opting out would lead to missing of quite a tranche of education and social interaction. I wouldn't mind personally if my (future, hopefully very future) offspring took part in a nativity play, nor would I mind if they played out the Hajj. I can imagine a rather different reaction from some if that story were to replace the nativity play. Personally I'd hate to see nativity plays banned outright as again they're a traditional thing in this country and I personally believe you can take part in the play even if your personal beliefs don't exactly coincide with the play's message. I think the tradition itself rather than ideas of Britain being monotheistically Christian plays a large part in a number of people's distaste at the ideas of nativity plays and mentioning of christmas being outlawed.

Zathras, if you want to be aetheist then that's fine I really don't care, but don't shove your non-beliefs down my throat. I don't care what religion an individual is, someone's beliefs are their own and shouldn't be questioned by another. Nor branded as stupid by someone who doesn't believe the same.

Well don't shove your beliefs down mine. My whole argument is that noone should be told what to believe and should be free at any point to make up their own mind.

Just be happy that you can follow your belief, or lack thereof, without persecution.

I think everyone is happy about this fact, as they are they live in a civilised society with rule of law, decent education, sufficient food to go around and 90-odd percent of the population able to get broadband

Religion should be taught at school. You were taught it and so was vaul. You have taken a view that you don't believe in it and have chosen your own path. At least you had the choice. Don't assume the rest of the country is stupid and unable to make up their own mind on the subject.

I have stated religious beliefs and practises should be taught in school, but outside of set religious education any one religion should not pervade into the rest of the school society, definitely not in non-denominational schools. If you want a religous education and feel that is important for your children, take them to a religious school or teach them the religion you believe in outside the school hours. This again is a choice thing. There often exists choices for those who support a Christian education as to whether they want a CE or an RC schooling as these schools are prevalent. Frequently the non-Christian and secularist/non-worshipping kids don't have a choice - there's only a county/community/non-denominational school, all of which have to by law partake in an act of religious worship of 15 minutes a day. Where's our choice? We can have a whole different thread on this.

I have a question for you zathras. Have you ever been in a position where you have had to face up to your own mortality, or imminent departure from it? I only ask because it takes a particularly strong mind to be able to do that and maintain an aetheist outlook. There is a saying, you may have heard it. There aren't many aetheists in a fire trench (slit trench....whatever).

Ah, that old chestnut. The saying's not really that true, as http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html would point out. I can certainly understand the appeal of being able to feel, in a crisis, that there is a higher power one can turn to, especially the case of death. When things are out of your control and all you can do is say to yourself, "Please let me/a loved one be OK." Just because I recognise the sometimes overwhelming strength of such a need does not in any way prove there is a God to meet that need. On the contrary – the very fact that it would sometimes be hugely tempting to believe that there is a god to pray to should make us suspect that belief in the existence of such a god is not based on rational grounds but on wishful thinking.

I have been in a few situations where I've seriously felt I could die (being in a friend's car while it flipped over five times is one of them) but any thought of a supreme being didn't enter my thoughts either during the event or after. I've also seen many loved ones die and whilst I didn't go around thinking any less of people who 'prayed' for these people, I spent my time in quiet reflection of what the person had done, how they'd contributed to their friends and families, or if possible helping the person by spending time with them or helping to care for them. After the event I've helped by supporting causes like Cancer Research. I personally feel that whether a person lives or dies depends on circumstances and it is their own efforts and those of other human beings around them that reduce the chances of death, not any mystic factor, and personally feel that there is no point in invoking supernatural aid.

[Stewart]

Religion should be taught at school.

Depends what you mean - if you mean there is room at school for the Nativity and singing Hymns, then I agree, there is also room for religious education. If you mean the Bible and creationist viewpoint should be taught as fact, then that would be something I could never agree with.

You were taught it and so was vaul.

Hmm, well, I sang hymns in the morning at Infant and Junior school and we did the odd play at Christmas, and at Senior School there was an RE class, but that was more community stuff - designing anti-Crime posters and the like. Beyond that, I was not taught religion at school.

There is a saying, you may have heard it. There aren't many aetheists in a fire trench (slit trench....whatever).

Very true, but it simply highlights the fact that when a gun is to your head, you'll kid yourself to any extent to lessen the suffering. Perhaps this explains why so many people choose religion in the first place? You can either die, and be put in a box to decompose, or you can float up to heaven where a nice man will feed you hobnobs for ever.

Hmm, which to choose?

The former of course, as I'm a realist and try to kid myself as little as I feel I can get away with.

Now, I have never associated myself with religion, my Dad, like most Dads taught me to tell the time, to read, etc. He also taught me to play Chess, told me that smoking is a mugs game, and that religion is the biggest steaming pile of hypocrisy, intolerance, senseless hatred, myth over fact, and general tosh that humanity has ever been cursed with (he didn't put it as nicely as that, of course, but I’m giving you the polite, edited version).

And I've not seen anything to change my mind since. Even associating myself with the Church would be impossible - institutionalized child abuse and mistreatment, by Priests and Nuns, the very representatives of God, in Church, the house of God, is not the sort of environment you'd find me 'worshiping' in.

For God to allow child rape and sexual abuse to go on in his very house and then expect people to worship him, I find very strange. Perhaps 'he' should be apologizing to us, for giving cover to these paedophiles? For the countless lives lost in the name of religion? For the wars, misery and suffering caused by followers of other religions? For the evil acts carried out in his name and with his false backing? Still, seems he’s already washed his hands of the whole affair - not heard much of him for a while now, have we?

Anyway - religion, specifically organized religion is a curse, something we can very much do without, and something we need to leave where it belongs - in the past.

I'm a man of science, of fact, of proof, of evidence. A story book and a song about a donkey, little or otherwise, is not my way forward, nor anyone else’s.

Having said that, I am tolerant of people's rights to follow whatever religion they want - I even got Jesus a birthday present, but he opened it in September...

[Barakka]

I'm not forcing it on anyone. My, point if you'd bothered to read it, was that while one item was stopped another opposite one was added. The school is, as I understand it, a CoE school. My other point is while expressions of Christianity is being seen as offensive, overt expressions of other religions are encouraged.

I attended a CofE school and was taught about the Christian faith, in fact the lessons preparing me for my confirmation were at school. The nativity play and the singing of hymns was part of my early education, only as I got to high school did the inclusion of "other faiths" get touched on, and I do mean "touched on". I grew up in an area with practically no religious or ethnic minority representation.

When I went away to University it became immediately apparent how little I knew about the other faiths which make up our cuturally diverse modern world. The sheltered religious education I had received up to that point meant I understood very little about the beliefs of 30-50% of my fellow students (not just students from this country but students from Malaysia, China etc.) and I was not alone. In fact a couple of us made a deliberate effort to talk to people about their faith in order to understand it better, and thanks to the "open mind" attitude from being a 1st year student we were well received. However, it did make us realise how people without this opportunity (or the desire) to expand their knowledge in this way could draw ignorant preconceptions.

I did appreciate the religious teachings I had at school and the nativity plays, but feel more teaching about other faiths and their beliefs would have much better prepared me for the world I was going to face, which in essence is the purpose of education.

[Firelord]

Now, I have never associated myself with religion, my Dad, like most Dads taught me to tell the time, to read, etc. He also taught me to play Chess, told me that smoking is a mugs game, and that religion is the biggest steaming pile of hypocrisy, intolerance, senseless hatred, myth over fact, and general tosh that humanity has ever been cursed with (he didn't put it as nicely as that, of course, but I’m giving you the polite, edited version).

And I've not seen anything to change my mind since. Even associating myself with the Church would be impossible - institutionalized child abuse and mistreatment, by Priests and Nuns, the very representatives of God, in Church, the house of God, is not the sort of environment you'd find me 'worshiping' in.

For God to allow child rape and sexual abuse to go on in his very house and then expect people to worship him, I find very strange. Perhaps 'he' should be apologizing to us, for giving cover to these paedophiles? For the countless lives lost in the name of religion? For the wars, misery and suffering caused by followers of other religions? For the evil acts carried out in his name and with his false backing? Still, seems he’s already washed his hands of the whole affair - not heard much of him for a while now, have we?

Anyway - religion, specifically organized religion is a curse, something we can very much do without, and something we need to leave where it belongs - in the past.

I'm a man of science, of fact, of proof, of evidence. A story book and a song about a donkey, little or otherwise, is not my way forward, nor anyone else’s.

Having said that, I am tolerant of people's rights to follow whatever religion they want - I even got Jesus a birthday present, but he opened it in September...

Vaul I totally agree.

I do not believe in god or any other religions for that matter and have never seen any reason to believe in something otherwise.

Especially when my dads mum was ill and suffered terribly from cancer. Personally its up to the individual for their religion but I don't want to have it preched to me in th street or to be told I can't have "christmas" because its not PC. Christmas is as much about families and friends as it is religion.....

Its all got out of hand really (not here but in general) and everyone should take a chill pill and take xmas, christmas or crimbo as they wish not how they should be told.... For me its time for family and reflection on the year but everyones different