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Thread: Martin determined to return home....

  1. #97
    Goat Boy
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    I've just been for a run ( ) and had a think about this. I think the basic point is this. Ignore the fact that he shot the guy in the back. Just answer this question:

    For leaving the burglar bleeding to death on his property, checking into a hotel and not alerting the emergency services, is TM guilty of a crime?

    I dont think that there is any reasonable argument to say that he is not guilty of a crime for doing that. Ok. So if he is guilty of that, it's simply a matter of deciding what he is guilty of. Manslaughter seems to be the correct crime IMHO. He didn't mean to murder the guy, but his actions did kill him.

    I think if you look at it in this respect there is no argument to say that he should not have been jailed. I think he received the right sentence tbh...
    "All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks

  2. #98
    herbalist
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    its a hypothetical situation....

    if war is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question
    2 things i hate the most - xenophobia and the french
    "chuffing"

  3. #99
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    Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
    I've just been for a run ( ) and had a think about this. I think the basic point is this. Ignore the fact that he shot the guy in the back. Just answer this question:

    For leaving the burglar bleeding to death on his property, checking into a hotel and not alerting the emergency services, is TM guilty of a crime?

    I dont think that there is any reasonable argument to say that he is not guilty of a crime for doing that. Ok. So if he is guilty of that, it's simply a matter of deciding what he is guilty of. Manslaughter seems to be the correct crime IMHO. He didn't mean to murder the guy, but his actions did kill him.

    I think if you look at it in this respect there is no argument to say that he should not have been jailed. I think he received the right sentence tbh...

    But then that is murder.....

    He made a predetermined choice to keep a gun (illegally) To carry the (illegal) gun when investigating a noise in his house. To point the gun at someone and pull the trigger (when not exactly provoked) and then to leave the scene for the two to bleed to death. By not contacting the emergency services he made a decision to allow someone who he shot to die.

    TBH my opinion is that the 2 deserved everything they got. They broke in to someone's house to steal from them. They put THEMSELVES in to that situation, they got shot. Tough rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish, you shouldn't have been there in the first place.

  4. #100
    TiG
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    This is the point i tried to make in my other post, If no-one had broken into TM's house he wouldn't have killed anyone.

    Thats the thing that i think is missed out on here. It has a massive impact on how i view this case.

    TiG

  5. #101
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    Originally posted by TiG
    This is the point i tried to make in my other post, If no-one had broken into TM's house he wouldn't have killed anyone.

    Thats the thing that i think is missed out on here. It has a massive impact on how i view this case.

    TiG
    Yes, exactly. I agree with this completely. The thieves shouldnt have been robbing tony martin. Tony martin was probably, to a certain extent at least, wrong to do what he did (illegal shotgun etc) but if they hadnt been there in the first place...

  6. #102
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    Originally posted by not_your_punk
    zathros, you mentioned about how we would defend ourselves as against the law e.g. baseball bat to the head a few times, but here's a secenario for you : The government legalises rape.
    This really has become ridiculous. Going from talking about Tony Martin shooting an unarmed burglar trying to flee to talking about legalising rape and trying to compare reactions and emotions brought about by the two is absurd. Okay, a purely hypothetical situation, I'd leave the country if I could or campaign my hardest to get the law revoked. If rape laws were revoked, numerous others would have been too, probably including assault etc, and I could in my legal rights act to incapacitate whoever committed the rape to prevent him inflicting it on other women. There's no way in a million years rape would be legalised here and other countries to stand by and let us do it. In countries where rape is not criminalized, women are treated completely differently to here and even then a rape against a married woman would be considered an assault on the property of the man, therefore illegal and probably carrying a death sentence.
    Last edited by Zathras; 30-07-2003 at 04:21 PM.

  7. #103
    Goat Boy
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    Originally posted by Big RICHARD
    But then that is murder.....

    He made a predetermined choice to keep a gun (illegally) To carry the (illegal) gun when investigating a noise in his house. To point the gun at someone and pull the trigger (when not exactly provoked) and then to leave the scene for the two to bleed to death. By not contacting the emergency services he made a decision to allow someone who he shot to die.

    TBH my opinion is that the 2 deserved everything they got. They broke in to someone's house to steal from them. They put THEMSELVES in to that situation, they got shot. Tough rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish, you shouldn't have been there in the first place.
    I'm confused. If tony martin murdered the guy as you agree, and yet they got all that they deserved, how does that leave things? Should martin be sent down for that or not?
    "All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks

  8. #104
    Goat Boy
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    Originally posted by TiG
    This is the point i tried to make in my other post, If no-one had broken into TM's house he wouldn't have killed anyone.

    Thats the thing that i think is missed out on here. It has a massive impact on how i view this case.

    TiG
    Ok. Lets assume that it's ok for him to shoot them in the back for the moment.

    What should happen to TM for leaving the house, checking into a hotel and not alerting the emergency services?
    "All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks

  9. #105
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    Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
    I'm confused. If tony martin murdered the guy as you agree, and yet they got all that they deserved, how does that leave things? Should martin be sent down for that or not?

    In all honesty I don't know. Sometimes I think no, stupid bastards shouldn't have been in his house, others i think that the police should ahve done their jobs properly and others i think that he should have called and ambulance. The only thing I am certain about is that I'm glad there is one less set of toerag genes on the planet forever now! That's why i think it should be right to do what TM did every time to buglars!

  10. #106
    Goat Boy
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    But should he have left him to die?
    "All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks

  11. #107
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    Yes, one less toerag to spend good taxpayers money on. While he's claiming dole cos he can't be arsed to work. While he's not paying PAYE as he does 'fiddle' jobs, as he claims disability falsely. as he robs people (TAXPAYING PEOPLE) and then claims legal aid to defend himself. as he gets paid for in prison and is given money as he leaves prison. As he claims more legal aid to sue his victim.

  12. #108
    TiG
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    Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
    Ok. Lets assume that it's ok for him to shoot them in the back for the moment.

    What should happen to TM for leaving the house, checking into a hotel and not alerting the emergency services?
    I think what i'm trying to say is that TM was but in a situation that caused him to use unreasonable force, meaning he deserved to be sent to prison by the law of the land.

    I agree that he should be sent to prison but i don't agree it should be murder, which is why i'm trying to make the point of it was the people breaking in that made him feel he had to shoot them.

    He RE-ACTED to a sitaution. I.E if he wasn't in that situation he wouldn't have killed anyone. I personally don't see what TM leaving the house checking into a house and not alerting the emergency services has to do with most of this case, it doesn't make him look good, but i still believe with the anger/rage/paranoia/fear he must have been feeling that it has little bearing on what happened to him apart from making him look like he didn't care about what he did.

    Which i firmly believe he still maintains that he would do it again?. No guilt for doing the what he did?. I can understand that to a certain extent, but he has killed someone and as far as i'm concerned he's paid his debt to society.

    I bet if someone does take TM's life they will never be caught, even tho the police should be well briefed on the threat to TM's life.

    TiG

  13. #109
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    Originally posted by TiG
    I personally don't see what TM leaving the house checking into a house and not alerting the emergency services has to do with most of this case, it doesn't make him look good,
    The problem with this is it's seen as not having remorse for shooting someone. If you get punched in the street and defend yourself until the other person is in a bloody heap, unconscious, then not calling an ambulance would get you done under the unreasonable force argument. Even if you feel like leaving the little bastard to die! TM felt like leaving the rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish to die, but shouldn't really have done it (in the eyes of the law). He was probably getting his own back for the fear he was in and also preventing a reoccurance of his house getting burgled in the future. It's a method of crime prevention, a bit harsh I know, but it works!

    I would have called the ambulance, but I might have made sure they were both dead first. I don't know, people react in strange ways to fear and anger.

  14. #110
    herbalist
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    i stil don't see why he was punished for ridding the world of a dirty thieving gypsy

    if war is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question
    2 things i hate the most - xenophobia and the french
    "chuffing"

  15. #111
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    Originally posted by not_your_punk
    i stil don't see why he was punished for ridding the world of a dirty thieving gypsy
    I like your bluntness! I really do!

  16. #112
    herbalist
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    there's a gypsy camp 5 minutes walk from my house, i have experience of the bastards.

    if war is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question
    2 things i hate the most - xenophobia and the french
    "chuffing"

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