Gun crime

[kasavien]

Listening to the news today i hear another police woman has been shot, thankfully not fatally. It seems to me that the laws that were introduced after the dunblane shooting (i realise this only affected handguns) haven't really affected gun crime, it seems to me criminals will get guns if they want to, surely it would have been better to legalise firearms, BUT make sure they are properly registered and tighten up the laws on who gets firearms, maybe then the police would at least know where firearms are. I was wondering what people think should be done with firearm laws given the recent attention gun crime has had in the media. Personally i am of the opinion that people should only be allowed to carry firearms if they have a legitimate reason for example game hunting.

[herulach]

As far as i am aware thats the only time they can firearms. Having legal firearms doesnt help either imo (look at the state of gun crime in the US). People just steal guns/forge paperwork etc. It makes it a bit harder, but if someone wants a gun id rather have them struggle to get one from some dodgy guy who prob only has 9mm handguns than Wayne and Waynetta's Old fashioned Assault rifle shack.

[Flibb]

Most people that shoot in the UK would like the legalisation of target grade pistols for club use. The banning of pistols has had bugger all effect on guncrime (its nearly doubled since Dunblane), and has just ment people have lost their hobby. Also if somebody wants a gun for commiting a crime its highly unlikely they would bother to go throught he long process of getting a certificate, when they can pick up an UZI for a couple of hundred quid. People advocating restricting firearms allways hold the USA as proof that high gun ownership = high number of gun murders, what about France, Norway, Sweden, etc that all have relaxed gunlaws and dont have the same problems as the USA. In the UK FAC applicants are veted before they can buy a firearm, if its for target shooting they have to serve a probation period of 6 months at a club before putting in for a certificate.


PS yes I do shoot, am hopefully joining a new club soon as I want to try blackpowder pistol shooting And maybe fullbore military target rifles, fancy a .303

[kalniel]

Should just nuke everything the wrong side of the Trent and half of britain's gun (and other!) problems would go away

Anyway, non-compound archery > poncy 'it goes where you aim it' shooting

[TeePee]

The laws introduced after dunblane were a pointless kneejerk reaction. As the Cullen report found, the real fault lies with the way the police were enforcing existing rules, like sending untained officers to make house calls on gun owners, rather than with the laws themselves. Local gun clubs and firearms owners had reported Hamilton to the police, and the detective who was head of the Child Protection Unit had written to the chief constable questioning his fitness to posess firearms. Of course, after dunblane it was far easier to appease the mob of angry parents incited by the Sun, especially so close to a general election, than to uphold the rights of the few sportsmen we had left. Our Olympic team now lives and trains abroard. We had excellent legislation prior to 1997, it was just badly operated. Now we have bad legislation and gun crime has shot up.

A comparison between gun control in the US and over here just doesn't work. If guns were universally legalised over here, as in the US, very few people would buy them, since we don't have a culture of hunting and shooting sports. But every criminal who wanted one cound get one! Similarly, banning guns in the US wouldn't work! Crime in the US is as much a problem of the different society than of the availablity of firearms. We look after people who are out of work a lot better!

Public opinion would make it impossible to return to pre-1997 legislation.

[kasavien]

Sorry i should have been much clearer in my original post, i agree with the above posts that banning hand guns hasn't had a positive effect at all on the level of gun crime, and that it has indeed had a negative effect on gun sports. I meant to say something similar myself but i'm not too good at putting my thoughts into words as part of a debate. I'm particularly interested in peoples opinions on gun crime and what they think should be done to tackle it, given the recent high profile crimes in the media.

[nichomach]

I agree completely with EVERYTHING that TeePee said; a situation that I'm sure he finds as disturbing as I do . I said at the time to anyone who'd listen that we were getting another Dangerous Dogs Act (rushed legislation, poorly thought-out and even more poorly drafted). I also said that the police were colluding with the press to deflect attention from the gross dereliction of duty by senior police officers that directly led to Thomas Hamilton having guns in the first place; it's worth noting that the last time an officer visited him to assess his fitness to hold a FAC, she may have been junior and lacked training, but she was unequivocal in her opinion that he should under no circumstances be allowed to retain his FAC. She was overruled by senior officers who took advantage of the public furore in order to retire with their pensions intact.

The problem with legislation is that it only affects lawful gun owners, who by definition have to be generally MORE law-abiding than the common run of citizenry. They do not affect the rate of gun-related crime since the vast majority is committed with guns that not only are not legally held, but indeed have never been legally owned. Look at the outcry following the murders of Charlene Ellis and Letisha Shakespeare. The hue and cry was up for "tighter gun control"; generally missing the point that they were shot with a submachine gun. It hasn't been legal to own a fully automatic weapon in Britain since 1948.

How do we address gun crime? Oh dear...again I'm going to pick up on what TeePee said. Gun crime levels in the US are higher at least in part because social exclusion is far higher.

Chief Corwin of Kansas City said that in the hardest-hit neighborhoods, people had explained it as a "lack of hope." "If I don't have skills, I don't have training, my socioeconomic situation looks desperate, do I really have hope?" he said. "I think that ties into the anger. If the only thing I have is my respect, that's what I carry on the street. If someone disrespects me, they've done the ultimate to me."

New York Times, registration required
As social exclusion gets worse, so will violent crime.

[TeePee]

I can see the headlines now: 'TeePee and Nichomach in shock agreement horror!'....

[nichomach]

Truly, a headline you'd only expect to see in The National Enquirer, just above the "Genuine Face of Elvis Found on Mars"...

[TeePee]

Heres a good addition to this topic:

http://media.putfile.com/How-To-Make-Swiss-Cheese80

putfile, so crappy buffering....

Basically, armed guy with illegal firearm tries to rob a hotel, but the Clerk has a Concealed Carry permit and a Glock. It's a perfect example of how effectively the US gun laws can and do work for it's citizens, somethng for which we as the British people should not be so critical. My thoughts on UK gun control can be found above...

[RVF500]

During the post Dunblane hype and ensuing hijacking of the parents by the snowdrop appeal zealots I was asked to sign the appeal at my kids school sports day. I refused, much to the sefl rightoues indignation of the parent pushing the appeal. My respones was "I'll sign that when I can't walk into Brighton this afternoon and buy an AK47 ready to go".

My point? same as the above really. The law only hit legal firearms enthusiasts. The likes of Hamilton will get weapons of some description to carry out their agenda regardless of laws. The problems were not the laws but the application of the laws. It boils down to the fact that people kill people. The fact that voilent crime in general is on the increase is due to the social issues we have not the number of sportsmen who wished ot own firearms for sporting purposes.

You might add Switzerland to the list of nations with relaxed firearms laws and low crime.

[integerspin]

Hasn't it always been illegal for crims to have guns.

[unreal]

Just thought I will add, this morning a famous rapper 'Proof', who was part of the Hip-Hop group D12 was shot dead in a nightclub, which will no doubt associate gun-crime with Hip-Hop more. Its a bad loss, as he wasn't an idiot like what 50 Cent is, and he was Eminems best friend. Ironically, he was the guy who played as the guy who got shot on Eminiem's 'Toy Soliders' video.

http://news.aol.com/entertainment/mu...00010000000001

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191339,00.html