The Muslim veil issue

[Taz]

I'd just like to make a few comments about the woman who refused to take her veil off whilst teaching at a school.

Firstly, she is a huge embarrassment to the vast majority of Muslims in this country, including myself. Her ignorant, pig-headed, confrontational attitude is doing nothing whatsoever to help community relations in this country.

Even the infamous Muslim Council of Britain have told her to move on! Her own MP, also a Muslim, has told her to 'let it go'.

The whole issue is meat and drink to the far-right and right-wing press. There are two million Muslims in this country. Of those, approximately 10,000 are women that wear some sort of veil. Of those 10,000 a very small percentage choose to wear the full veil. I think it's wrong to do so in a Western country.

[harry1]

i completely agree, a veil is fine, but at times its not apropriate at all in all honesty. its hard to think of a reverse situation but i for one would never go to a eastern country and try to enforce western ways as its not right. its not my place too.

[ponders]

well said Taz, i think the clintcher fo me was when i found out she didnt even wear it originally for her interview, bit misleading i thought.

I think we are all going through a change in this country (more than usual) with all the immigration and increasing number of assylum seekers (due to violent conflicts caused by whatever reason), the people settled in in this country as 1st or second generation british people, and consider it very much as a mother land emotionally akin to how native English British people must have felt back in the 60's and 70's+, imagine what it was like back then when there weren't that many coloured folk !! The fading racicm we see now can ALMOST be explained with this. Converging beliefs and patriotism will bring peeps together- i hope!!

[Moby-Dick]

Taz would you say the same for the Luton schoolgirl who wished to wear traditional dress to school ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/3482295.stm

personally I think she's a pawn of those with a fundamentalist view who wish for a media outlet ?

[chuckskull]

Personally I believe you should be free to call God whatever you choose and wear anything/follow any lifestyle you like until it impedes you in doing something important(your job or driving, was an example in another thread recently).

What tends to annoy me though is when other people are expected to go out of their way to make way for your faith, recently an airport worked was suspended for wearing a cross, while her some fellow employees wore veils with no problem. Hypocrisy like that i find offensive. I'll happily accomidate your beliefs if you accomidate mine.

Also people who want to follow a fanatical religious doctrine while enjoying the modern benefits of western life. Abu Hamza(sp?) for example, preaching hate and murder, while claiming benefits and free healthcare from the country he declares holy war on. Again the hypocrisy is ridiculous.

You shouldn't pick and choose which bits of religion suit and which dont. This isn't only Muslims, most modern religions are guilty of it. Religious fanatics, from religions preaching love, peace and showing murder as one of the worst sins, going around killing each other.

[Taz]

Taz would you say the same for the Luton schoolgirl who wished to wear traditional dress to school ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/3482295.stm

personally I think she's a pawn of those with a fundamentalist view who wish for a media outlet ?

Perhaps she is a pawn with some nasty individual persuading her to make a stand somehow. A tiny minority of Muslim women can become obstinate rather than extremists simply to display their loyalty to Islam. I personally believe that is wholly wrong and any faith should be a private matter for the individual concerned.

One example of obstination was when I was flying back from Dubai a few years ago and a Muslim girl, probably aged about 20, refused to sit next to a man on the aircraft. She caused a scene and it was thoroughly cringeworthy.

Bearing in mind that this was a British Airways flight flying to London, I don't see how she could use the excuse of her religion to refuse to take a seat next to a man. I think some people go to these lengths due to the Prima Donna syndrome rather than anything sinister.

[iranu]

One example of obstination was when I was flying back from Dubai a few years ago and a Muslim girl, probably aged about 20, refused to sit next to a man on the aircraft. She caused a scene and it was thoroughly cringeworthy.

Bearing in mind that this was a British Airways flight flying to London, I don't see how she could use the excuse of her religion to refuse to take a seat next to a man.

I was on a bus with a mate of mine in 1997 in Sumatra. There were 2 free seats available. One next to a man and one next to a woman. My friend and I didn't take the seats, we stood. We understood that the woman would probably feel most uncomfortable with an unmarried western man sat next to her. The man in the other seat, who was married, got up and said thank you and sat next to the woman so my friend and I could have seats. The woman asked the man to thank us.

If I can have an understanding of someone elses culture, whereby that culture is the country's then why can't people respect my culture and my country's culture?

I see the veil wearing Muslim the same way that the Saudis would see a Christian woman walking the streets of Riyadh in a pink string bikini. They are both deeply offensive and as such are tantemount to sticking two fingers up at the host culture.

I firmly believe that the veil should be banned in public in Britain as I believe it is an extremist item. Even in Pakistan women do not wear the veil to teach children. You don't see people wandering the streets in balaclavas or other people hiding their faces unless they are up to no good.

I'd also like to thank Taz for posting as I wondered when this issue might visit these forums. The obstinate actions by a minority within a minority sadly creates more tension and helps create a distorted view amongst Britons as a whole. Atleast we are beginning to have a debate and this can only be good. We have to get over the threat of being labelled racists when questioning an individuals religion and how that affects them and society.

[autopilot]

Well said Taz, all of my Muslim fiends and the Muslin people i know dont like them either.

For a start, they have nothing inherently to do with Islam. It pe-dates Islam, even some Christian factions wore them (in fact still do). It was never originally worn implicitly at a religious item, the Quran has no specific reference to them either. They were more to do with class than anything else.

I really don’t like them, i feel it's a right to be able to see someone’s face when you talk to them in person, it's an essential part of communication. Which is why they were right to ask her to take it off when teaching, children need to be able to see peoples faces. It's dehumanizing, and it's fundamentally different to wearing a partial Veil, cross or traditional dress. In fact, i would go as far as saying that i find them a bit creepy, always have, but maybe that just me and nothing really to do with this topic. I even find myself agreeing with Jack Straw, which is rare. I think wearing the Veil is just plain rude in most circumstances, and stinks of religious chauvinism.

But, people have a right to do what they want in there own time. hell, wear a pair of Speedos to do your shopping in if you want. Just don’t shove it down our throats. At the end of the day, if it was such an important and integral aspect of the Muslim faith, then more would be done to accommodate it. But it’s not, and I wish she would just sod off and stop - a) Playing up to the fundamentalist Islam prats that most decent Muslim would rather forget and who try to tar all the good Musilm people with the same nonsence, b) Stop giving the right wing media rubbish to write about, when there are other thing going on in the world of far greater significance, and c) giving idiots like the BNP more ammo. She is the ignorant one, she must be stupid to think everyone else is. Why cant she she that see is doing more damage than good? But then if she cant understand how important being able to smile at someone is, then she clearly is a moron.

I wonder why some people even want to live in this country sometimes. I welcome everyone to our country, but if these hypocrites hate our culture so much, why are they here?

[charleski]

There's a certain type of person who wants to create a fuss.
It's simple attention-seeking behaviour, the same as you see in kids who get into trouble so their parents will take notice. Generally the real problem is a personal or family difficulty that the person can't handle directly, so they externalise it by trying to transform it into an outside issue.

The veil issue had nothing to do with Islam, and it's extremely annoying that this woman tried to solve her personal problems by adding to the tensions in our community. The same goes for the schoolgirl from Luton.

[chuckskull]

The teacher fired for not removing her veil has applied for 'exception funding' from legal aid. After losing her case the first time.

I dont mind Muslims getting legal aid, or anyone else and i'm quite keen on the biggest morons being given their day in court, but if your husband is a doctor and you decide to go on a ridiculous crusade to protect something thats not even mentioned by the Koran(or Quaran, I dont know tbh). Maybe you can cover the costs yourself and leave money for someone who actually needs legal aid

[KBeee]

I'm always inclined to "follow the money" when these things happen.
Poor Muslim girls (with £50,000 worth of legal help) that demand to be able to teach in a Christian school wearing a mask, and blaming any discomfort on the Predudices of her audience. I wonder if there are many Islamic schools that employ Christian women to teach their young ladies without wearing a mask, and displaying a Cross on their breast.

[Steve B]

i watched question time on thursday, and this was one of the major points.

i think with regards to teaching children, a man in the audience made a fantastic point.

80% of communication is not through word of mouth. if a woman wearing a veil, man wearing a balaclava, to be honest it doesn't matter, practices a job which requires a lot of communication, i.e. a teacher, then 80% of this communication is negated.

It is not an attack on her faith, she can wear whatever the hell she wants, thats not for me to judge, its about teaching children.

[autopilot]

I read in one paper today that the Veil is actually band in some Muslim countries. Maybe she is lucky she can wear one at all.

[Norky]

Good one I heard today:

A veiled muslim woman knocked on my door the other day, I spoke to her through the letterbox to see how she likes it

[pp05]

I cannot believe a piece of cloth made front page headlines for a whole week distracting our populance from Iraq situation is intensifying. Nice move Jack.

Secondly, as you said it's only a minority who do wear it so it's not enough to make it a issue. I mean, If US politician said Amish people should use the internet and electric kettles and throw away their hats, how do you think it would be taken? exactly. But yes I agree she is now milking it, although just as silly is a nationwide "ban".

[autopilot]

If US politician said Amish people should use the internet and electric kettles and throw away their hats, how do you think it would be taken? exactly.

Eh? Thats COMPLETELY different. You are missing the point, that makes no sense. Shunning technology is an integral part for the Amish doctrine, the Veil is not an integral part of the Muslim faith. The vast majority of Muslims don't wear a veil, and Amish people shun technology, that what makes them who they are. Telling Amish people to use the internet would be like asking a Muslim to stop reading the Koran, but the analogy with the Veil does not make any sence. Not wearing a Veil does not stop someone being a Muslim. And if someone who is a Muslim is stupid enough to think it does, well they are offending and devaluing thier religion. Jack straw was not asking Muslim people to stop practicing Islam. Neither did he tell people they had to, just that it might help community relations. And he's right, the Vail is a barrier to good communication - which is a basic fundation of good relations.

And what if an Amish person when for a job at a school to teach IT, demonstated they could use the internet and computers. Then, when they got the job, refused to use PC's? Thats a better analogy, although not a perfect one i admit.

Like someone else said, 80% of comunication is non-verbal. Waring a Veil is like going to France and refusing to speak much French, even if you were fluent in it.

Also, what's exactly so 'modest' about wearing a veil? Religious showboating is hardly modest.