A small 'workstation' for my office

[Kirano]

Hey fellow Hexusians!

With crunch point coming in my PhD (mid way through 2nd year now) I've been consistently working more in my office but, up until now, I've still been using my desktop at home (where I have my Ubuntu installation with al my coding packages) for doing my simulation design work and any demanding computational runs that can't be run on university servers. I am, however, not the best at working from home sometimes. I've also been finding that my laptop is a little underpowered, especially as I will soon need to be running basic, but demanding tools such as MatLab quite regularly.

So, I'm looking to put together a desktop computer for my office. I will want to..
- Be able to do all the basics (word, internet, blah...)
- Run calculations in MatLab, SRIM etc.
- Have a dual boot to Ubuntu, where I'll do the bulk of my programming work. This will primarily be code design, testing and debugging. Full simulation runs will be done via the universities HPC (I'd use that for the building but I hate doing my bulk coding work without a GUI!)
- I'd like to use an SSD to boot either operating system (my gf has one and I literally cannot stand watching her computer boot - mainly because there's nothing to watch!!!) and then have a hard-drive for data, accesible to either OS - is this possible?!?

I'm hoping to keep the build below £500 but with a max ceiling of perhaps £600. So far, I've put together this on scan...

AMD FX 6300 Black Edition Six Core Processor Socket AM3+ = £89.56
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/amd-f...che-95w-retail

1GB XFX Radeon HD 7770 DD Core Edition, 4500MHz GDDR5, 28nm, GPU 1000MHz, 640 Cores,+Free FarCry3+Nexuiz = £92.12
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/1gb-x...dl-dvi-hdmi-pl

MSI 970A-G46, AMD 970, S AM3+, DDR3, SATA III - 6Gb/s, SATA RAID, PCIe 2.0 (x16), ATX = £61.75
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/msi-9...-%28x16%29-atx

Coolermaster K-280 Black Mid Tower Performance Case w/o PSU = £32.74
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/coole...e-case-w-o-psu

500W Corsair CXM Builder series, Hybrid Modular, 85% Eff', 80 PLUS Bronze, SLI/CrossFire, EPS 12V, Fan, ATX = £49.80 inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/500w-...ps-12v-fan-atx

64GB SanDisk Pulse, 2.5" SSD, SATA III - 6Gb/s, MLC-Flash, Read 490MB/s, Write 240MB/s, 7200 IOPS 1800 IOPS Max = £46.37 inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/64gb-...s-1800-iops-ma

2TB Toshiba DT01ACA200, 3.5" HDD, SATA III - 6Gb/s, 7200rpm, 64MB Cache 8ms NCQ = £71.04
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/2tb-t...-cache-8ms-ncq

Which comes in at £454.36!

The one thing I'm contemplating at the moment is going for a slightly beefer CPU - either faster or an 8-core varient, though I'm not sure...

Let me know what you all think - if you need to know anything more about my usage, item choices etc. then please just ask!

Cheers,

Kirano

p.s. I'll need to pick up a copy of Windows 7 somewhere somehow and possible a monitor - but I'm currently trying to source those from my department...

[Pob255]

Start off with, that's not really small, the k280 is a fairly basic generic mid tower case, hardly a small case.

Swap the mother board for this mATX one http://www.scan.co.uk/products/gigab...vi-d-hdmi-matx
Case use this one http://www.scan.co.uk/products/ace-e...oofing-w-o-psu not in stock atm so you'd need to find out if they are expecting more in.
Get a couple of 1000rpm fans for the front eg http://www.scan.co.uk/products/120mm...e-emission-fan

Do you need the graphics card? you could probably do fine on the onboard graphics

you could go right down to mini-itx if you want small but the does have the habit of pushing the price up.

[DanceswithUnix]

In workstation terms, that is small. For starters it only has one CPU socket

The graphics card does seem quite powerful if you don't want to play games, unless you are interested in doing some OpenCL computations of course.

If you want to keep the machine workstation like, the Asus AM3+ socket motherboards all seem to be able to take ECC memory.

The CPU seems like a good sweet spot in their range. The 6350 is 15% more expensive and might get you 11% more performance. The 8320 gets you two more cores, which again is not quite scaling performance in line with price but not far off. If your workload needs to scale across lots of hardware threads rather than just cluster nodes then the extra cores might be nice to work with but that adds quite a few pounds to the cost.

How much ram are you putting in there, I didn't see it listed?

[AETAaAS]

How intense are MatLab and SRIM? Agree with DanceswithUnix about the GPU being overkill unless those situations arise.

If the calculations are not very intense or time critical, I might think about saving money and space by going down to an FM2 mini-ITX build. Still get reasonable 3D acceleration and a boost in OpenCL but can use much smaller cases (if you are going to have to move it between work and home) and cut costs.

[Pob255]

How much ram are you putting in there, I didn't see it listed?

Good spot danceswithunix

@Kirano, ether you didn't list the ram or you forgot it.

[DanceswithUnix]

How intense are MatLab and SRIM? Agree with DanceswithUnix about the GPU being overkill unless those situations arise.

If the calculations are not very intense or time critical, I might think about saving money and space by going down to an FM2 mini-ITX build. Still get reasonable 3D acceleration and a boost in OpenCL but can use much smaller cases (if you are going to have to move it between work and home) and cut costs.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of "small workstation".
Workstations are big machines intended to run flat out for days at a time. Sounds like this is going to be used for computational tasks intended for an HPC enviromnent, so all cores maxed out for hours at a time is a big factor. Think "I want a small articulated lorry", a Ducati won't do however nice they are

You want a motherboard with a 140W CPU rating and decent VRM. You want as many DIMM slots as possible. The L3 cache on an FX cpu is probably going to help a lot given all the cores will be maxxed.

I did consider FM2, but only if you could build one dual boot machine for £300 and a second linux only box for £200, giving you a 2 machine, 8 core, gigabit backbone mini cluster. Then you would probably want something like a pair of ITX machines. I think the budget is rather tight though so I haven't tried speccing that.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I managed to find some benchmarks for the FX6300 using Matlab:

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/cpu/amd-fx-x300.html

Here is a link to a xls file with dozens of AMD and Intel CPUs compared:

www.ixbt.com/cpu/results/results-2011.xls

As I suspected Matlab does not thread well - I would check how well threaded the other applications you use are. The FX6350 should be around FX8350 level performance for Matlab with the test they performed or around Core i3 2100 level performance.

However,despite the fact that a newer and higher clocked Core i3 will be faster,you need consider that the AMD CPUs should be better at running many instances better.

[DanceswithUnix]

Nice find Cat, so for Matlab the 6350 would be a pointless increase in cost.

If the "SRIM" referred to is the program at srim.org, then if the quality of the HTML is anything to go by then I am not hopeful it scales well across cores

[Kirano]

Oh wow, I wasn't expecting to come back to so much information - I have underestimated the power of the Hexus community again!

This machine was intended to be a half-way house - be a standard desktop type set-up that can be a HPC when it needs to be. So perhaps 'workstation' was the wrong word. Most of the time I will be using it for day to day stuff + low level simulations. But, there are certan things I can't run on the Universities own HPC, so my 'workstation' will have to take it's place running stuff for 24hrs+ with cores maxed. I'd probably say it'll be a 75/25 split on a weekly basis.

SRIM is.. well... yeah, I agree with the assertion about their website (it is that one) and I don't think it is multi-threaded. Accurate simulations with that (10,000,000's of particles) can take several hours to run, quite possibly longer. Remarkably few of the programs I use are multi-threaded, sadly...

Okay, so, let's summarize what we have here, plus additional things I've considered...

1) Graphics card
There is probably no need for me to have a graphics card, as you all wisely point out. Provided the MB can output to two monitors (which afaik it can, for the one pob255 suggested), there is nothing graphically intensive that I'm going to running. If I find that there is, it will be rarely and I can find a way around it. Ultimately, if I consistantly find that graphics is holding me back, it's hardly the hardest thing to add in.

2) MB
A micro-ATX board makes sense. I'm not going to need many, if any PCI cards apart from a graphics card, which I may not need at all. I was a bit disappointed by the lack of SATA III on the 760G boards but would I really see a difference, even with an SSD? Having looked at the other micro-ATX boards in that range, the Gigabyte one you suggested seems a good bet Pob255.
That said,

3) RAM
I already have 8Gb spare of this http://www.scan.co.uk/products/8gb-%...9-9-24-xmp-15v
That said, I've just realised....
Runs at 1600Mhz, max supported by mobo is DDR3 - 1333(OC)! Will this be a problem?

4) Case
Give that there's no price difference between the micro-ATX case and the one I suggested I'd prefer the mid-tower case, simply because it then gives me room to play with if I repurpose the machine in a few years time. I like the addition of 2.5" bay for and SSD, requiring no additional purchase of adapters etc.
Also, I've had an ANTEC 1200 for a main desktop case these last five years (the same one that DHL tried to smash a year and a half ago.) It still looks like a monster, even now. Anything smaller than that is, small by my definition... And once it's in my office, it will be staying there until I leave said office in a year and half's time....

5) CPU
While most of my programs are going to be single-threaded, I'm going to want to run multi simulations at a time with cores maxed whenever I can. Like I said at the beginning, it won't be 24/7, more like 24/2 (i.e. weekends) but it still needs to be reliable to run for that kind of time frame at high load.
Originally I was like YEAH BEST MONEY CAN BUY FX 8350 8-CORES FTW but then decided to be sensible and tone it down to something more realistic/money saving and came up with the 6300. I'm still tempted to scale up to the 8350 simply so the extra power/cores is there if I need it but perhaps that's just the e-penis in me! (read that how I meant it, and not how it sounds btw!) Perhaps if I did want to go to 8-cores, the 8320 would be the more sensible choice between performance and price...

Here is the revised spec then...
AMD FX 6300 Black Edition Six Core Processor Socket AM3+ = £89.56
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/amd-f...che-95w-retail

Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 = £40.54
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/gigab...vi-d-hdmi-matx

Coolermaster K-280 Black Mid Tower Performance Case w/o PSU = £32.74
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/coole...e-case-w-o-psu

500W Corsair CXM Builder series, Hybrid Modular, 85% Eff', 80 PLUS Bronze, SLI/CrossFire, EPS 12V, Fan, ATX = £49.80 inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/500w-...ps-12v-fan-atx

64GB SanDisk Pulse, 2.5" SSD, SATA III - 6Gb/s, MLC-Flash, Read 490MB/s, Write 240MB/s, 7200 IOPS 1800 IOPS Max = £46.37 inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/64gb-...s-1800-iops-ma

2TB Toshiba DT01ACA200, 3.5" HDD, SATA III - 6Gb/s, 7200rpm, 64MB Cache 8ms NCQ = £71.04
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/2tb-t...-cache-8ms-ncq

which totals at £341.03
A 8320 would push that up to about £375.
And I should probably pick up a couple of extra fans for the case...

Additional questions
- Should I invest in a better CPU cooler than stock?
- Will a 64Gb SSD be enough for a Windows and a Linux OS?
- Is there anything else I've forgotten?

Thanks again for all your suggestions thus far!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Would go ATX as for the sort of work you are doing,as the newest chipsets seem to be ATX only for AMD,and the motherboards seems to have more robust VRMs too.

[Kirano]

Would go ATX as for the sort of work you are doing,as the newest chipsets seem to be ATX only for AMD,and the motherboards seems to have more robust VRMs too.

So, an ATX version of the 760G mobo or am I looking at a 9-series mobo if I want to get the benefits of the more robust VRM's?
Is there a 9-series mobo with on-board graphics, eliminating the need for a discrete graphics card?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

So, an ATX version of the 760G mobo or am I looking at a 9-series mobo if I want to get the benefits of the more robust VRM's?
Is there a 9-series mobo with on-board graphics, eliminating the need for a discrete graphics card?

You would need to go for a 900 series motherboard and there are none with an IGP.

However,I would get a low end Nvidia card.



The parts are from Scan. The case is quite compact and can be used horizontally or vertically and has the PSU at the front. You will need to add some fans,as an exhaust as the PSU is an a inlet IIRC.

My mate has the earlier version of the same motherboard(revision 1) and he runs a 95W TDP Phenom II X6 1045T for days at a time under heavy load running bioinformatics stuff.

I would get this SSD:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004W2JKW..._df_B004W2JKWG

An alternative is the Samsung 830 64gb. Both are known for their longterm reliabiity. You will need to ge a bay adaptor too.

I would also consider getting a downward blowing aftermarket cooler too. This looks OK:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/coole...3plus-am3-am2p

However,I am not sure whether the VRM heatsinks on the motherboard will interfere.

If you go for a larger ATX case,it would make the choices a bit easier and the system probably quieter too.

[Kirano]

@Cat-The-Fifth
Oh yeah, a DVD drive - I probably do need one of those don't I?
Okay, so 9-series mobo with a cheap graphics card - that seems a good bet. The one you suggest looks great - especially like the two e-sata connections on the back.

Having had a look around at how to build a dual-booting system I'm starting to think it would be better to go for a 120-128Gb ssd, to make sure I have enough space...

Hmm, the VRM heatsinks do look quite large...
Maybe a custom cooler is something I can add afterwards. It will take some time getting everything up and running - given that I should still be in my office working during the day it will probably take me a couple of evenings to have built the computer and installed the OS's and the software. During which time I could have measured the available space, compared to those available online, bought and had delivered a new cooler!

For the sake of making choices regarding coolers and such easier, I'll probably go with a slightly larger case.

Okay, we're almost there...
I'm still stuck on three things then...
120/128Gb ssd
Do I really need a 2Tb hard-drive - I will probably be fine with a 1Tb and save myself the £20? (maybe only I can answer this one....)
Is it worth going for the extra two cores of the 8320 or save myself the money altogether and go for the original 6300?

[Pob255]

I think the K280 is probably going to be a better bet over the elite 361
As a cheap basic case it looks reasonable, it's a bit bigger without being massively so, not too narrow + pressed out side panels so you'll have space for cabling and large cpu coolers if needed.
Although no top fan/vent
For the current cost and other cases currently around the carbine 200r isn't too bad http://www.scan.co.uk/products/corsa...lid-side-panel Bit more money but a solid case
The fractal design R3 wouldn't be a bad option given the cost http://www.scan.co.uk/products/fract...ng-noise-absor
For lower cost the NZXT 210 wouldn't be a bad option http://www.scan.co.uk/products/nzxt-...usb-30-w-o-psu (there is a black one but it's more expensive for some reason)
I would suggest one of the great Casecom cases but ebuyer hasn't got the good ones in stock any more and they are currently using yodel for delivery so they are currently off my list.

The range of Amd AM3+ mATX boards is rather poor the VRM shouldn't be a problem with a decent one, not as good as some of the high end ATX boards but you're not overclocking so it shouldn't be an issue.
However the lack of sata3 is a big flaw if you're looking to go ssd
I'd say the straight asus M5A97 http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asus-...-%28x16%29-atx or gigabyte GA-970a-UD3 http://www.scan.co.uk/products/gigab...-%28x16%29-atx would be fine.
I'm sure you used to be able to get 990FX boards with onboard graphics but it looks like not anymore, but that's ok as it was the expensive top end board that did.

the gt630 is a great cheap card and actually has quite a bit of ommph for the cost.

Personally I think you'll probably find 1tb plenty if you're not sticking on games or movies even then it's probably fine.
on SSD 120 vs 128 doesn't really matter much, the difference is that 120gb drives have more space assigned for wear leveling so in theory they should last a bit longer, however this is not always the case, because the controller used and the chips used also have an impact.
If all you are going to put on the ssd is the OS then 64gb is plenty, al;though personally if I dual boot I always put the OS's on separate physical drives.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The only reason I suggested the Elite 361 since it is small for an ATX case and the OP wanted a smaller case. It would probably make things easier to go for a bigger case though.

Regarding,the VRMs,I would rather going for a decent motherboard if the OP is doing intensive simulation work,and under heavy sustained load there have been reports of throttling with the newer AMD CPUs with a number of older or lower end motherboards,and the FX6350 is a 125W TDP AMD CPU. The M5A97 EVO at least from my experience is a very solid board,and should be able to take that load fine.

Edit!!

After looking at that xls file again,I wonder if the Phenom II X6 1045T would do the job too:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/AMD-Phenom-P.../dp/B006G76LZY

It is the 95W TDP model and there are not many still available.

[Kirano]

@Pob255 and CAT-THE-FIFTH

Thanks again for your posts. I think I'll probably go for the EVO - not just on your experience of it CAT-THE-FIFTH but also the e-sata connections will make initial transfer of data and frequent backing up much much faster...

I think I'm happy with the k280 but I'll look through the other suggestions to see if there's one with better specs for the price.

I was originally thinking that 64gb would be enough but then, having poked around online on how to dual boot windows and ubuntu from an ssd, it became apparent that I'd probably be a little pushed to fit it all in. Though I'd love to buy two separate SSD's (the best/easiest experiences of dual-booting I've had have been in using two separate drives) that's perhaps a little luxurious of me. To be honest, the SSD itself is probably a little luxurious, I could probably get by having windows 7 on one 1TB drive, and Ubuntu on another.

Option number # is that I take my EXISTING Ubuntu installation drive out of my home desktop and stick it in the new office computer. Then I don't have to worry about reinstalling all of my simulation software (which, for various reasons, I have installed maybe 8 times across different drives and laptops, versions etc and there is always *something* that goes wrong!) Question is; will it boot, or will Ubuntu throw one because I've suddenly dumped it in a completely different hardware environment?

Edit

Having just priced it up, having two seperate 64Gb ssd isn't all that more than having a 120Gb. If I'm fully installing the OS on each drive separately then there's definitely no need for a 2Tb drive... It helps that my intial budget is becoming increasingly flexible as my desire to 'just buy it' becomes greater...