Package delivered...actually not!!

[Hawker1986]

Hi guys,

Sorry if this is the wrong place. I was just after some advice following something that has happened today. Ive ordered something from scan, and it was courriered by City-Link. Essentially apparently it was delivered this morning and signed for by someone. No card left. I live in flats but my neighbours dont know anything about it and my landlord doesnt know of anyone by the name quoted on city-links site living here. Basically I have to presume the city link dude has just given it to some yob that was about and its done a runner.

Anybody been in this sort of situation before? Know what the process is for getting my money back? I spoke to city link and they couldnt get through to our branch to ask them direct for more info yet.

Thoughts appreciated,

Hawker

[killie99]

speak to Scan, your contract is with them not City Link. It's Scan's job to sort it out and as it's not your name that has signed for it then I can't see wht you'd have a problem. If you get no joy out of Scan by Monday afternoon and you spent more than £100 and you paid by credit card I'd call your credit card company. Explain to the CC company and they will stop the payment.

[kalniel]

Yep try to handle this through Scan, they should be able to sort things out with City Link for you. At the end of the day you've not had the item you paid for - the contract is for the item to be delivered to you so remains unfulfilled until such as time as you do get the item. If it had to go further down the line (which it won't) then they'd have to prove they did deliver the item to you, and obviously they can't do that if you haven't signed for it nor has anyone connected to you.

[GoNz0]

if its not your name don't worry, just make sure scan ship it again tomorrow for you and accept no excuses.

[Sputnik]

Reminds me of when I bought something a while back. I eventually managed to get the couriers to answer the phone and apparently they left it under the bush (which does not exist) next to the front door because we never answered the door even though there was 2 of us at home all day. After some weeks and long after I had given up hope of seeing it, My neighbour brought it around and said it had been left somewhere and someone gave it to his mother in law who gave it to him - a real pass the parcel. Needless to say I will never use UK mail again.

Anyway, going back on track. Yes I would say it is upto Scan to take up the problem with Citylink.

[Hawker1986]

Thanks for the input guys,

Randomly I looked at city links site today and apparently its been loaded onto a van again this morning. Still says it was delivered...very confused. Possibly they screwed up what it said on the website and they still have it. If they cant give me some more answers ill get in touch with scan.

Cheers again guys,

Ed

[DavidM]

Please ring our customer services team, or log the issue on our website using the link below.

Please note - if you post this in the general forum area, and not our area, then the issue can easily be missed.

Any delivery issue really needs to be reported immediately to ensure we can deal with it promptly.

[Saracen]

As has been said contact Scan if the goods still don't arrive. I'm sure they'll sort you out.

The generic case is :-

• the goods belong to the seller until the buyer accepts
  
  
• until you accept, you can cancel under the DSR if you are a consumer buying from a businesses, and as long as the contract is not one of the exceptions to the DSR
  
  
• if you cancel before delivery, you get a full refund including shipping costs, and that includes if you decline to accept goods when delivery is made
  
  
• if you do accept delivery, you still have the usual minimum of7 working days, with the usual limitations to that
  

Of course, the practice can be a bit more complicated than the theory. In this case (as per original post), the obvious question is .... has delivery taken place? If the person ordering the goods, or someone authorised and acting on their behalf, hasn't received the goods, then no, it hasn't.

But this, of course, is open to abuse in both directions.

A company could send goods via a courier, and the courier could forge a signature, say he's delivered and make off with the goods. I had this happen to me. The company concerned asked me for written confirmation of non-delivery and a sample of my signature. They also wanted to know who else might be at the premises (a private home). Information was duly supplied, and company then requested proof of delivery from the courier's offices. The name and signature on the "delivery proof" did not match mine in any way. A copy of this was supplied to my by the seller, and I confirmed in writing that I had no idea who it was. The courier driver was, at the very least, negligent in his job and falsifying documents. I don't know if the was stealing the goods. I do know he was fired as a condition of the supplier not pulling the contract with the courier.

So it could be the company or their courier acting fraudulently.

On the other hand, I could have had a mate at the house when the delivery was expected. I could get him to pretend to be me and the courier driver would have no reason to doubt when the person answering the door gave their name, so they'd have got a signature (which clearly would not match mine) and genuinely left the goods in good faith. I could then contact the company and moan about non-delivery of my goods.

So, despite the legal position being that risk in the goods does not transfer to the consumer until they accept delivery, there are situations where it might be hard to prove if they have, and where a signature is disputed either as unknown or overtly fraudulent would clearly be one of them.

So where would hawker stand, had the situation been as he originally thought?

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it ....

.... provided he's a consumer buying from a business, and providing the contract is not a DSR exception, then he simply cancels the order. That puts the seller in the position of having to provide a full refund of the value of goods including shipping (unless the shipping was a special option apart from the standard contract), and to do as soon as possible and in any event within 30 days. It is not conditional on them getting their goods back. So, as far as that's concerned, it's largely irrelevant whether the consumer genuinely didn't receive the goods, or is fraudulently trying it on, or indeed, is merely mistaken and the goods were taken in by a family member or neighbour and he doesn't realise it. Regardless of that situation, the consumer is entitled to his refund, unconditionally, and within 30 days at an absolute maximum. The only exception to this rule on the refund is that the direct cost of getting the goods back can be deducted if the consumer is required to return them and doesn't.

However, as soon as the responsibility for the goods transfers to the consumer (upon acceptance of delivery), the basically acquires two duties in relation to those goods :-

- take "reasonable care" of them, and
- return them to the seller in accordance with the terms of the contract

If you don't, then the seller has a right of action against the consumer for breach of contract. In other words, the seller can sue the consumer either because he didn't take "reasonable care", or didn't get the goods back. The first stage in that case is going to be proving (and as it's a civil case, the burden is "balance of probability", not "beyond reasonable doubt" that the consumer did receive them, and that essentially is going to mean convincing the court that the consumer is lying about not getting them, or that it is his signature, or that there's some deception going on which, in these circumstances, would seem to amount to a criminal act.

Could a seller prove that to the court's satisfaction? I don't know, because I don't know what steps courier companies, or drivers, take to accumulate evidence.They could, I guess, in theory at least, have a video camera recording the delivery that might catch the guilty consumer on evidence-quality recording. But do they? I'd be flabberghasted if they did.


So the upshot of all that is, IMHO, hawker would be entitled to a full refund inc delivery charges if the did not take delivery. It's then down to Scan to sort it out with the courier, and if and only if they could prove that hawker really did take delivery is he liable.


And the executive summary? If you didn't accept the goods, hawker, it's not your problem. Which, I rather imagine, is why a responsible company like Scan would sort you out right away and then argue over it later with the courier. And, for all I know, they may even be insured against fraudulent losses by some unknown third party, or the courier firm might be. In any event, it isn't your problem.

[DavidM]

As there was no query logged on our site with the customers concerns, I have logged this down for him.

However - if you can follow up using our online system if you still have issues - then we can deal with it for you.

If an issue isn't reported, it does make it harder for us to deal with.

*Edit* My colleague (another David) has now been in contact with the customer over this issue.

[Chris P]

Hi Hawker1986

David from our Customer Service has just sent you an e-mail regarding this.

Best Regards

[Hawker1986]

Thanks guys for all your input, I didnt put it in here because I really didnt know where I stood on the matter. David has kindly informed me that City Link are just muppets and put the wrong thing up on their site, its not been delivered to anyone, ill collect it this evening.

Thanks again to all of you for your input.

Hawker