Orange increasing contract prices!

[Hicks12]

Why would you go with ANY contract if you can get giffgaff for no money? Unless you're tidied up already of course...

I made a switch from O2 and not looking back. Unlimited data/texts and 250 any network/time minutes for a tenner cannot be bad! My missus is on the same network meaning we can chat for free. Win/win situation really!

Definitely i recommend it to anyone who doesnt want a contract, the thing is my HD2 had been broken (smashed, repairs failed ) if my HD2 was still alive id be on GiffGaff in a heart beat, however i wanted a new smartphone and the best deal i got was the Optimus 2x at £17 with 300 or 400 mins a month unlimited texts and data (well data is 500mb, havent gone over that yet ) so for me it worked out like this:

Contract for O2x
£408 for 2 years

Go GG + O2x @ £550 at the time
£15 p/m GG package = £910
£10 p/m GG package = £910
Or wait until a dualcore phone came down, say £270 now for O2x i believe...
£15 p/m package = £630
£10 p/m package = £510

So unfortunately ive signed myself in with Orange but the main point is that my contract was a bargain , the HTC desire and other phones were like £300 anyways so the fact mines so cheap and the phones been brilliant once i installed some custom roms . And i guess the major thing for me is that i dont really have £200-£400 ready to splash out at any given time as i like a proper job, being a student doesnt give much room apart from my 2 day a week job lol!.

But im about 80% sure i will be on GiffGaff in 1.5 years though, unless i break this phone like i broke my HD2... a mere few months left of my 18month contract i smashed it on the concrete lol!.

[scaryjim]

My wife's just got her texty saying the contract price is increasing in Feb. But her contract's due up in April anyway, so I suspect that she won't be hanging around that long...!

[Zak33]

my missus and I both got "the text of doom" too from Orange.

Price hike... v. long on contract left with our new phones.

Never heard of Giffgaff.. but now I do know of them I'd consider them in future so thanks for the advice on that

[Ricco]

I was on Giffgaff and cound not fault it, but switched to 12month contract as it worked out cheaper then buying a phone.
So i get a phone at discount(sim free btw) and 12months of t-mobile data/txt/mins for free.
Giffgaff was far better though for data and I do miss the faster speed, but nm.

Anyway will this affect T-Mobile too ??

[Saracen]

How can they do this? If you sign up for a fixed price contract i dont see how they can say that fixed price has gone up.....

Is it a fixed price contract, though?

It's been several years since I was on contract (PAYG these days), but it always used to be the case that the "fixed price" referred to the fact that, basically, it was an allocation of a level of service provision (i.e. connectivity, with x minutes, y texts etc included) for a price that was not variable based on usage. Unless they've changed it, that'll still be the case, but the contract will undoubtedly give them a provision to increase by modest prices, i.e. inflation linked, and to give an option to cancel the contract if prices go up by more than that modest amount. And an earlier post in this thread quoted what appeared to be exactly those provisions.

I will bet that whatever price increase comes, it'll either be in line with that or people will have the option to get out of the contract.

So can they do it? My bet is, yes, they can.

The mortal of the tale ..... if you sign up for a lengthy contract, read the contract. And I read, carefully. Don't skim it. Read it properly, and try to work out what it means. And don;t work out what you think it means, but what they may construe it to mean and be able to do as a result. Think about what it lets them do to you. Because, if you're an adult and if the contract complies with legal requirements over how contracts are worded, you can and probably will be held to it if you sign it.

It's a completely different scenario, but not long ago, a job I was doing on a contract basis required a new contract to continue. One of the provisions of that contract was that I would fully indemnify the company for any and all costs, including professional and legal fees, if they received a virus from me.

I pointed out :-

1) They insisted on certain communications, including invoicing, by email, when I'd rather post a printed copy.

2) They wanted me to indemnify them against that risk, but they would not indemnify me if I got a virus from them.

3) I knew for a fact that a recent security audit had revealed one of their main admin computers had several dozen viruses on it.

4) I take all reasonable precautions (or in fact, I take more than that) and as a result, I've detected a few incoming viruses over the years, but haven't had an actual infection in, oh, 10 years or so. They cannot say they same.

5) Given the extent of the risk, that is, the potential size of the cost if I end up paying out on that indemnity, and given the commercial value of the contract, there was a zero chance of me signing that. I'd walk away from the work first. Signing up for a possible liability of tens (or more) of thousands of pounds of liability, given an unknown level of risk even given best practice being followed by me, for a return of a few hundred quid a week, was an idiot's move. It was, effectively, risking bankruptcy over a working wage, for which I was also doing the work. To hell with that.

I refused to sign ... and carried on under the old contract. But I know other sub-contractors that did sign, and moreover, did so without even reading it.

My point .... if you can be bound by it then YOU, dear consumer, have a responsibility to read and understand what you're signing up to, before you sign it. And if the contract provides provision for an increase in the fixed price, and I'd bet it does, you can't really be too irate if it happens.

This might sound like a bit of a rant, and perhaps it is, but it's not aimed at you, Biscuit, despite the quote. That just opens up the setting for the rant.

My rant, really, is aimed at consumers that don't do their own due diligence, and then moan if it bites them in the ass. Many companies are quite capable of indulging in sharp practice and obnoxious (and sometimes even illegal) actions, and then consumers do have a reason to be righteously irate. Anyone see Panorama last night, over supermarket "deals"? Or the whopping great fine HSBC just got for mis-selling products to the very elderly? And so on.

But, IMHO, not over this.

[shaithis]

Just got this myself.....not massively annoyed because I have 40% off my contract anyway.....but still annoying!

[Hicks12]

For me personally Saracen the main thing is that one i was an idiot for not making as much as an effort to read the contract (i.e i should have looked online for one that was in a readable font instead of trying to read their crappy paper version) but other than that is, ive never see an increase in a contract price succeed , and the truly OMG this is unfair type thing is that it means Orange can advertise a cheaper price than competitors and get loads signed up but then a few months later add on X amount and make them more expensive than rivals... Bit anticompetitive in that respect!.

[shaithis]

Had a chat with friends that work at Orange and they say that the contract is worded to allow them to change the prices mid-contract

They also were pretty fed-up......seems that the people who decided this would happen tried to send out millions of texts to customers and then told front-line staff it had happened.....

Took a few days to quieten down the phones at Orange call centres lol

[Biscuit]

i totally appreciate what your saying Saracen, the problem i have, as a mere public mortal, is that i cannot differentiate between what they mean in these contracts and what i understand it as. On top of that im a systems engineer for broadcast... i know the laws relating to signals levels in broadcast, i know speed limits for driving vans, i know a decent amount about health and safety but when it comes to contractual law i know next to nothing. Even if i could make sense of what they are saying, i have no way of knowing how lawful it is without researching each individual point.

In certain circumstances this is probably what i would do (for example, if i am singing a renting contract for a house or, such as your example, a change in job contract) but for something like a mobile phone contract, i think the time it would take outweighs the money involved.

I will openly admit at this point, i rarely read the Ts and Cs from the specific company for this reason. I will often browse the internet and look for the problems other people have had and go from word of mouth; the summaries if you will. In this case i wasnt directly affected however my girlfriend was, i guess i just feel a bit bad as i pushed her to get a new phone and i couldn't help her out when orange screwed her over

[Stringent]

Didn't think Giff Gaff allowed tethering? Thats one reason I went to 3.

[Biscuit]

Problem is, how can they know? As long as you don't tether then download insane amounts the traffic would be near enough identical so its an impossible thing to enforce.

The problem with 3 is that their coverage of remote areas is crap, so when you are traveling (especially on the train) as soon as it sets off you lose reception then don't get it back until you are close to a large town or city.

[Agent]

Problem is, how can they know? As long as you don't tether then download insane amounts the traffic would be near enough identical so its an impossible thing to enforce.

The browser string is the most obvious one - The mobile variations of browsers have a different one for a start.

Secondly is the different data that passes over the connection. A lot of people assume that if they launch just the web browser while teathered they'll be fine, but other processes like Windows update checking for patches will give the game away in seconds.

It's very easy to see if a connection is tethered if they want to. You'd have to go to a lot of effort to mask your tracks fully if using a tethered connection, as by default, any normal PC system has a lot of 'noise' traveling over the connection that you won't be aware of.

[Biscuit]

Fair point!

Does anyone on Giff Gaff tether anyway without problems?

[Saracen]

i totally appreciate what your saying Saracen, the problem i have, as a mere public mortal, is that i cannot differentiate between what they mean in these contracts and what i understand it as. On top of that im a systems engineer for broadcast... i know the laws relating to signals levels in broadcast, i know speed limits for driving vans, i know a decent amount about health and safety but when it comes to contractual law i know next to nothing. Even if i could make sense of what they are saying, i have no way of knowing how lawful it is without researching each individual point.

In certain circumstances this is probably what i would do (for example, if i am singing a renting contract for a house or, such as your example, a change in job contract) but for something like a mobile phone contract, i think the time it would take outweighs the money involved.

I will openly admit at this point, i rarely read the Ts and Cs from the specific company for this reason. I will often browse the internet and look for the problems other people have had and go from word of mouth; the summaries if you will. In this case i wasnt directly affected however my girlfriend was, i guess i just feel a bit bad as i pushed her to get a new phone and i couldn't help her out when orange screwed her over

Oh, I understand the problem and T&Cs aren't always easy to read. But .... you're signing a contract. You have some protection in legislation from unfair terms, as you do with consumer legislation on goods and services, but like that legislation, it's designed to be balanced and fair to both sides, not just a cop-out for consumers.

From what I can see, the relevant term is ....

4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment.

....

However this option does not apply if:

4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; or

So, simply put, they can increase by an amount less than or equal to inflation. The precise basis of the relevant "inflation" figure is specified, but ignoring that, the basic message is ... we can increase in line with inflation.

I can understand that legalese is confusing, and that T&Cs are boring but .... can you honestly tell me that, had you read it, you couldn't (and wouldn't) have concluded that a price rise, in line with inflation, was a possibility, and allowed for by the contract?

I've read that several times and I can't understand how it's really possible to misinterpret the broad point .... an inflation-linked price rise might happen.

Had they doubled the price, I could understand the complaint, but then, you'd have an out. Had they decided to remove a major feature, like no texting, or no web access, from a contract that had it, then you'd probably have an out then.

But what does this price rise amount to? According to their calculator, if you're on a £30/month contract, it'll cost you £1.28/month more, or £15.36 for the year.

Given that this provision was in the contract, and pretty clearly so in my opinion, and given that anyone that's paying £30/month for a mobile phone contract surely can't maintain that £15/year is going to make that much difference to them, I really don't see that there's grounds for serious complaint.

Sure, a price rise is not nice, but in these times, it's hard to see why mobile phone services should be an exception.

And to those saying they'll dump Orange when their contract expires, well, that's your right and if GiffGaff appeals more, then Orange have done you a favour by provoking you to move. But I'd bet all the mainstream phone providers have similar provisions. It's worth noting that GiffGaff T&Cs also say ....

4.3. Prices are correct at time of going to print but are subject to change.

The bold is mine.

The exact terminology is different as the GiffGaff model is different, but at least Orange provide a ceiling on the price hikes (without giving you a cancellation option), but GiffGaff can do as they like with prices.

In any event, we're all adults so it's for us to research what we want to buy and, be it Orange, GiffGaff or something else, look at what we are agreeing to before we agree to it. IMHO, of course.

[Biscuit]

All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics

If i didn't research what this is, i wouldn't know. I did just do a quick bit of googling and even the explanations of what it actually is are quite confusing. On top of that, it seems the C.S.O actually merged with another office and is no longer working under that name, these T&C are actually outdated in that regard. The document that is still produced by the successor which is reference in the T&Cs is still named the same so im not sure how relevant that point actually is, if at all.

Whilst what you say is correct about Giff Gaff, you have to remember that their 'contracts' run on a month by month basis, so if they change the price one month, you wont have to continue paying the price which you didn't initially agree on for another 12 months (or however long it is), unless of course you don't mind the amount asked for.

I may have to have a read through the contract im on (even if there isnt much of it left) and see how differently its worded.

[Saracen]

If i didn't research what this is, i wouldn't know. I did just do a quick bit of googling and even the explanations of what it actually is are quite confusing. On top of that, it seems the C.S.O actually merged with another office and is no longer working under that name, these T&C are actually outdated in that regard. The document that is still produced by the successor which is reference in the T&Cs is still named the same so im not sure how relevant that point actually is, if at all.

Whilst what you say is correct about Giff Gaff, you have to remember that their 'contracts' run on a month by month basis, so if they change the price one month, you wont have to continue paying the price which you didn't initially agree on for another 12 months (or however long it is), unless of course you don't mind the amount asked for.

I may have to have a read through the contract im on (even if there isnt much of it left) and see how differently its worded.

I know about the CSO and ONS, etc, but really, forget that and concentrate on the actual meaning of what it's saying.

Surely "All Items Index of Retail Prices" is pretty self-evident. It's an index of retail prices of "all items", as opposed to a selection of items, like oh, foodstuffs, or petrochemicals. And, as an index of retail prices compiled by some statistical office, surely it's pretty clear it's some kind of inflation measure?

I mean, seriously, is it not fairly obvious? I mean that literally, and it's a genuine question, Biscuit. I'm an economist by training, and an accountant by vocation, so it's certainly obvious to me, but then it flipping well ought to be. But as a genuine question, is it not obvious more or less what they're referring to?

I don't mean that you need to understand the differences in various inflation measures, or the distinction between the CSO and ONS, or whatever it's called this year, but the broad point that Orange may (or may not) increase prices, and if in line with a 12-month inflation figure, it doesn't void the contract.

Because it seems clear to me. There may be a modest price increase, in line with inflation, and you've agreed to it in the contract. I can't read that para in their T&Cs without clearly understanding the general effect, even if I don't understand the exact mechanism.