Vista Service Pack 1 by the end of the year and a win for Google...

[[Grevane]]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

And you gotta laugh when someone stands up to Microsoft and wins...

Not that I'm one of these "Anti-Microsoft" vigilante's or anything. IMHO, they've probably done more to help the growth of the internet and personal computing than any other company so I could never "hate" them so to speak, but it is very naughty locking Windows Search into Vista and not allowing competitors such as google the chance to offer the user an alternative.

And another "mini battle" scalp for Google it seems...

[this_is_gav]

The default local search engine? It just screams bandwagon to me... I mean, really - just how many people will care? The percentage of non-MS browsers on Windows is tiny... I couldn't even guess how few people will use an alternative to the the built-in search tools.

[[Grevane]]

As a Vista user, I would quite like to use the Google alternative, the Microsoft one is... well ermm... poor...

I'm certainly not one of those Anti-IE (I've always used IE, but had other browsers installed purely when work has required me to put my webdesigner hat on... well... except for I am a great fan of Avant browser but that is still essentially IE) people but I can see the logic about not being tied into the MS local search due to the degrees in which MS have changed how Vista searches when compared to older MS OS's...

The thing is, right now, nobody probably really cares because they've never had the option before... abit like say when Curries first came to Britain... I bet alot of people thought then... why do we need curries... and look at them now... most popular dinner in the country... but since the funcationality is now there in Vista to allow this and combine that with the (I would imagine) already fairly large user base who use Google desktop (in both a private and corporate enviroment), this is imho really naughty of Microsoft not to allow it from default.

Can you imagine the usefulness of Vista machines having Google desktop as the default local search engine in a Corporate enviroment where they already use the Google Enterprise Search "boxes" for document searching. The posibilities are huge....

[pitbull46]

Just on a quick note, why can't Google come up with an alternative OS to Windows, because if anyone can it's Google.!!

[[Grevane]]

Just on a quick note, why can't Google come up with an alternative OS to Windows, because if anyone can it's Google.!!

I believe they are of sorts...
I "vaguely" remember reading something about Google doing some sort of cheap PC... I would have to track down the link though... Can't remember any details but I believe they have something up their sleaves..

[dangel]

Seems largely pointless to me - most will stick with the MS one anyway and MS probably did it purely because the Mac has spotlight. The daft thing was you can install and use google search anyway in Vista, and you can already disable the MS one. It's more about google forcing themselves onto the desktop by default via OEMs and preconfiguration.

One wonders if Google will eventually become what they proport to hate..

(Service Pack 1 was scheduled for this year long before this announcement incidentally).

[[Grevane]]

I think the point about it is merely the fact that for the "average" user, not the sort who use these kind of forums, if they already use Google desktop on one PC and they then want to install it on their 2nd PC, a new one with Vista on and share the search results of both PC's as you can in Google desktop, there is currently no easy way to integrate it into the Vista UI. Or maybe there is with a few "tweaks" but the point being, 'IF' someone installed Google Desktop, Google should be able to provide a "tick box" in the install program, something along the lines of "do you want to make this your default local search provider?" much like when you install an alternative browser.

Otherwise, the user is stuck with all those "Vista" search boxes in the Explorer windows and start menu and when they search in there, the results bare no relation to what they get when they search in Google desktop.

I'm sure there is a certain amount of truth in what you say about OEM builds and really, is that such a bad thing?

It's purely about choice. Giving people the chance to choose what they want to use.

I know for a fact, from numerous years of Network support that Google desktop is a VERY popular tool and I can totally see how useful it would be in Vista to be able to make it the "default" search tool for the whole PC.

Also, I think there IS a fair amount of "politics" in this in respect to Google "leaning on Microsoft" to remind them that they are just around the corner and watching... which is also a good thing as it should keep MS on their toes and it was naughty to try and "sneak" this one past everyone considering how recently MS went through all the IE court stuff....

[dangel]

I see your point - really I do - I even just tried installing it myself - with the one-click installer

Pity it's bundled with their own sidebar (i didn't really need another one) and their toolbar for IE - at least it asked me if I wanted to do it (I wonder of Joe Bloggs would think: oh I better have those as well to make it work!). Of course it wanted to set itself as my default IE search provider and change my homepage to www.google.com. Hmm. Would all this be a _good_ thing for OEM builds (preconfigured) - no, I really don't think so. Hands up those who want even more craplets installed by Dell? Ah.

What Google want is even more pervasive integration into the shell - as you say, in explorer etc. Google on the desktop, in explorer, in the find box, in IE, in the (replaced) sidebar and as your homepage.. I don't think MS ever set out to exclude google from the shell itself - does it integrate in such a way in XP? Indexing has been in windows for years remember - it's only now that Google have an interest in the desktop and MS' implementation has become more integrated (like spotlight) that it's suddenly an issue.

I agree, entirely, we should have choice - perhaps this is a good thing - but I don't for a minute believe that Google has anything other than commercial motives at heart. Did you know Google now has a lobbyist branch set up in Washington? Troubling times.

[[Grevane]]

Yeah, I stopped using Google toolbar when i found out how much it screws around with your browser. Its certainly NOT a good thing for use in a karge Corporate enviroment. Install it, and use all the tools available to you to monitor the changes it makes to your OS... not great imho...

I'm also not a fan of sidebars. I used to use Google Desktop (great tool) but since I've had Vista, I've not bothered installing it since I was slightly concerned about how Vista would handle it. I used to just use the thing you could place in the middle of your screen and double click CTRL to type into. That WAS useful having a global semi-transparent search window in the middle of your screen.

Of course, you are quite right that indexing has been in windows for a long time, but with the advent of Vista, Microsoft suddenly have released their new OS with a search function (including widgets or gadgets or whatever you want to call them) that is (probably unsuprisingly so) very similar to Google's already existing "free" product. This might have also been the motivation for Google to stand up to Microsoft because in their own clever way, they have almost "stolen Google's thunder" by using an approach to Desktop searching that is very very similar from an external point of view to how Google do it in Google desktop. And I am sure the motivation for Microsoft to do this was because they've seen how popular Google desktop has become.

I do often wonder if in the long term we will have the "issues" we've had at times with Microsoft... I do honestly hope Google stick to their principles and remain almost a "peoples" company...

[dangel]

In a lot of corporate environments forget third party apps - period. It's just another thing to patch/support/cause conflicts with other software for IT.

Sidebars - well I quite like the MS gadgets - I don't show the sidebar as such, I just have them floating on the desktop. I haven't really had any issues with MS' implementation - I used to use the yahoo widget engine on XP.

The search function has always been there in one form or another - Windows + F, Search or even the annoying animated evil dog-o-death in explorer. All MS have really done is turn indexing on by default and put a search box in explorer/the start menu. Widgets/sidebars - probably we're being sidetracked as it's not really part n' parcel of desktop search - it's just that both companies do it now (in MS' case really because it's been around for ages in OSX). People expect a search function to be in an OS - I think we can agree on that. Is the issue it's accesibility/visibilty in Vista? Perhaps it's purely because the search box looks a lot like the one in IE and you can't choose google to appear there instead?

I think MS are probably one of the most monitored software companies in the world now - can they really do anything 'evil' any more? I wonder if I'll ever be able to make www.google.com use MS' search engine instead? Hmm.

[[Grevane]]

heh hehe nice idea... but please don't ...

before google, I had to use all sorts of different search engines (MSN was always bad and also TOO "busy" not in terms of traffic but in terms of appearance)...

For me, Google replaced the need to use Altavista, Lycos... damn, I can barely remember half the search engines I used to use... "way back in the day"...

The last thing I meant to add was... Google desktop search appears to be considerably faster than the MS Vista one...

And I'm sure MS are the most monitored company now... but as this example shows, it doesn't stop them from trying... if they get caught, worse that can happen is there is a tiny blip in their bank account and a bit of a public "kerfuffle"... at best, a little momentary glory for the company who stands up to them...

But I don't begrudge Microsoft for trying... As I don't believe anyone can deny the huge amount they have done for the growth of the Internet and for making personal home computing accessible for the non-technical user. Which in my honest opinion is a fantastic achievement in itself...

[dangel]

Well, argueably Google has a monopoly in the internet search market and is just trying to extend that onto the deskop - perspective is a wonderful thing and all that jazz Really, my point is, I'm not convinced the primary motivation was to shut google out - I think it really was a simple evolution of what was already there (combined with the desktop search work they did on XP) in the light of other integrated search engines in opposing OS'. I'm glad MS did it - the new start menu is horrifically hard to navigate without it

Ah well, I think we've exhausted the topic in any case

[[Grevane]]

Yeah, i think you are right in all three cases (google/start menu/exhausted)... although I suppose we will never know about whether MS considered allowing Google the ability to integrate Google Desktop into Vista. I suppose it was also an "opportunity" Google could afford to miss exploiting so to speak.

RE: The New Vista Start Menu... I have to be honest and say I hate it, its too slow and I'm glad they left the option to default it back to XP style.

Anyway, nice meeting and chatting with you Dangel.

/Grevane

[dangel]

Anyway, nice meeting and chatting with you Dangel.

Back at ya Cheers!

[[Grevane]]

Back at ya Cheers!

My pleasure mate, it's always nice to have a "considered and constructive" discussion on a forum (especially, having spent time on the WoW forums and other similarly horrible forums like the SWG forums) without having trolls and other such moronic comments spoiling potentially an interesting discussion.