I can see how the use of lamba expressions adds a convenience, and will reduce the number of lines of code in some situations. However, the equivelant Java, an using anonymous class would still be pretty acceptable in terms of readability. Yes, Java misses a few of the things which appear in C# like delegates and lambdas, but if we're honest, are these really major features? Apart from these minor niggles Java really is more akin to C#, than to C++.Originally Posted by TheAnimus
i wasn't meaning to range holy war, i'm not saying C# is a pannacia.
When you look at the first bit of a code i posted, i was slagging off how someone had screwed up the string class's join method, by making it have to be an array (pointless).
Now, trying to do the same in java would be even more verbose. Even more so than the example in C# i was complaining about.
If you can't see why thinks like lambda's + LINQ are incredibly useful, use them in anger for a while, and you will wounder how on earth you did without them, without going nuts.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
Lol, no holy war ranged, don't worry, I'm not particularly biased to either. Just making the point that Java isn't a legacy language as stated in your first post :-)
Just to clarify something..there is no such requirement for BCS accreditation of a course, or for becoming a member..I never did any work involving writing a compiler (or even any real low level programming below Ansi C) on my course, yet it was still an accredited computer science course, and I am MBCS..
We never did any real .NET programming at our uni either - closest we got was a tiny bit on a GUI design module, and that was only because it meant they could use VB.NET for the module rather than a real programming language, as the teacher didn't know much else (sorry but i'm very snobbish when it comes to VB.NET - it teaches horrible horrible habits and I strongly disagree with any uni teaching it on a comp science course).
It transpires (after some discussions today with an old lecturer of mine) that the main reason my uni stayed away from .NET was due to the department leader(s) all being very anti-microsoft, in the same way that many ignorant "geeks" are. Java is of course a multi platform alternative from a much more "geek friendly" so they opted to teach that for OO concepts rather than the microsoft alternative.
I would be amazed that something so ridiculous could dictate module content for an entire degree...but then I did go to *cough* Staffordshire University.
i honestly thought it was required for accreditation!
Its intresting that because whilst VB.Net, except for its XML handling abilities is well rather awful, .Net and C# are ECMA standards meaning anyone (mono forinstance) are able to write their own framework to implement it. Java isn't that free! This is why i don't get why so many uni's are pro-sun whilst been anti MS.
The joke is its the students they're hurting, by focusing, narrow mindedly on too fewer languages, plenty of people are coming out of uni un-able to learn or even pick up the basics of the modern languages. No one is saying uni's should train people in software engineering (with appologies to .anyone studying such a degree, but your doing a vocational course, its training, not a degree). Insted people should be coming out of uni enthused wanting to learn more about all the possible programming ideas and paradigms. Not thinking "oh i'm going to program java".
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
http://evain.net/blog/articles/2008/...-linq-on-net-2
technically you don't even need .net 3 installed to use the whizzy bits on 2.0 targets
It all depends on what you're doing. I don't agree with just using managed code for "everything" because in certain circumstances it's a poor choice or just won't work period. I agree C++ CLI is bloody awful (despite assurances from MS it's the 'premier' .NET language it seems to me c# is far better suited to the job) but not that C++ (outside of MS' 'extensions') is a bad language at all. In fact, even in .NET you've got some weirdness to my mind - why can I have default arguements in VB.NET and not c#? Couple that with it's general lack of maturity, speed and piss poor tools (VS2008 is a sluggish crash prone turd when you're doing WPF) and it's not always that appealing. And then there's deployment - even MS have realised 200mb+ framework installers are onerous - hence the client installer (which i've yet to check out for myself). On that front i've suffered from people simply turning machines off during .NET installation as it can take so darn long. It's not all roses - however I do agree is the future as far as MS is concerned.
Anyway, as for 'what to learn' I'm pretty sure 'anything OO' would be my answer - i'd be quite happy to hire a C++ programmer who'd never touched .NET - it's pretty easy to make the jump particularly when you're just working in something simple like c# (which I can't help but think of as VB for C++ programmers). I'm recruiting atm - and although the job requires a good physics background I'd say my previous statement rings true for us (commericially). Bear in mind we're not sitting round doing large scale web apps - we're in the minority of those doing desktop code in the .NET world
We use C, C++, VB(6), VB.NET (2.0), MFC (and i'm not sure why this is panned quite so heavily as it's a tiny and mature framework by today's standards), .NET forms (2.0 C++ CLI/C#) and WPF (3.5 SP1 C#). Some of that's legacy (that's a commerical reality) but some of that's also 'best fit for the job' or because it's technically the only choice to be had. The lion's share of our codebase is unmanaged C++ and I can't see that dramatically changing for a few years (either because it's not worth the investment or simply because rewriting will take that long). We don't use JAVA at all - since we're Win32 based it makes little sense.
Last edited by dangel; 15-09-2008 at 10:25 AM.
Crosshair VIII Hero (WIFI), 3900x, 32GB DDR4, Many SSDs, EVGA FTW3 3090, Ethoo 719
ok so i wanna delve into programming on a purely curiosity basis. i dont wanna go on any courses or go back to uni. what would you guys suggest and where to start?
Dangel i think it really does depend what your doing, this isn't a everything but .Net sucks, nor is it a we should all be programming ruby/cameL light/hascal/etc.
But. That said, some langauges are just arcane, C++ is very slow to develop, because you have to be so explicit. (Remeber i'm a low level freak as well who loves MASM deep down). However it lacks many nice ideas from the modern world.
Also C++/CLI != C++.Net. C++/CLI is quite nice in many ways, the seamless merging of managed and unmanaged via the language extensions are really good, problem is it still is anoying with 'cli::array' and nullable/genetics in general (also they look sooo like templates....).
Again please remeber, i'm not some one language wonder, i'm simply saying that people should really learn different languages, not just C++ and Java, or C++ and C# <not using any linq/extensions methods/lambda's etc...>. This is what lots of unis are doing, for shame.
I'm not saying people should re-write entire projects using my favourate language of the hour, far from it, more that why people haven't made extensions to java or C++ to allow seamless side by side developement of the old paradigm and the new. Yes F# & C# playing together is a bit trying, but its still damn nice.
As for performance, again it depends what your doing, and where the cost is (is it runtime or dev time) also given the speed at which CPUs are increasing, the way we're seeing more and more cores, you don't really want to have to write for them procedurally do you? (I don't, and i only got my last job because i was a 'threading guri' drawing a lockless queue at inerview(interlocked rather than volatile)). The point is the language should lend itself to helping with these things.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
check http://weblogs.asp.net/rosherove/arc...tream-net.aspx
but its not for introductory.
For starting programming try, http://www.microsoft.com/express/vcsharp/ there are screen casts, tutorials and videos showing how to get started!
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
Aha! So we agree - exactly what I saidSeriously, I don't disagree - I'm just putting up POV as someone on the coalface in the commericial world. The reality is that education is always out of touch (and always will be probably) of what's going on commericially, however the priciples of OO/programming should at least be taught (one hopes) regardless of the language. I do see people who are post grad/post doc and I wouldn't say all of them are (ahem) useless. Sure, no substitute for true experience and all that, but i'm more interested in how they think than which language they use (within reasonable limitations).
Crosshair VIII Hero (WIFI), 3900x, 32GB DDR4, Many SSDs, EVGA FTW3 3090, Ethoo 719
You've got nothing to complain about... the world of High Energy Physics is still struggling away from the wonderful world of Fortran. And I'm not talking about some modern Fortran here, I'm talking FORTRAN 77.
Yes - a language so old, you can't type beyond the 72nd character due to its punch-card origins...
C++ is just amazing in comparison.
Oh yes - don't remind me of my COBOL days
Crosshair VIII Hero (WIFI), 3900x, 32GB DDR4, Many SSDs, EVGA FTW3 3090, Ethoo 719
all of HPC is stuck in F77, F90, and ansi CYou've got nothing to complain about... the world of High Energy Physics is still struggling away from the wonderful world of Fortran. And I'm not talking about some modern Fortran here, I'm talking FORTRAN 77.
Yes - a language so old, you can't type beyond the 72nd character due to its punch-card origins...
C++ is just amazing in comparison.
good, innit
You telling me LHC experiments are run in FORTRAN77?
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No - anything recent (i.e. control software) will be either Python, C++, or suchlike. However, a lot of our Monte-Carlo event-generator software (i.e. software that generates fake collisions, and thus does lots of complex quantum chromo-dynamics and quantum electro-dynmaics calculations), is still in Fortran - although they are slowly porting it to C++.
I spent spent a lot of my PhD working in Fortran. Use to **** me right off, because I knew how utterly pointless it was from the perspective of a career outside particle physics - well, unless I went to work for the Met Office or something. They love their Fortran too...
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