Theater 650 Pro Discussion

[vddobrev]

Apparently people didn't see my post, or simply chose to ignore me. I asked a simple question and would appreciate it if someone would answer it.
I don't know if this is the place I would ask this...
I was reading various reviews and so on about the Theater 650 and I have a few questions. Has this model been discontinued? I also read this product was recalled for undisclosed reasons, again this is why I'm asking, I don't believe much of what I read on the internet.
Does anyone know if any place in Canada has this card in stock? Whether a store front or online?
Please help! I would love to get myself into a Theater 650.

It was originally pulled off the shelves, and later re-introduced. The only place I know about that sells them is BestBuy, but I am not sure if the Canadian BestBuy has them - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1149206843868

[Octavean]

Apparently people didn't see my post, or simply chose to ignore me. I asked a simple question and would appreciate it if someone would answer it.

I don't know if this is the place I would ask this...

I was reading various reviews and so on about the Theater 650 and I have a few questions. Has this model been discontinued? I also read this product was recalled for undisclosed reasons, again this is why I'm asking, I don't believe much of what I read on the internet.

Does anyone know if any place in Canada has this card in stock? Whether a store front or online?

Please help! I would love to get myself into a Theater 650.

There was a recall, which seemed to be directed at retailers and e-tailers only. End users who bought the older defective TV Wonder 650 seemed to have never been contacted by the manufacturer in any way shape or form. No information was given regarding effected serial numbers, which may indicate that all initially released cards were affected.

There was a quick fix and the TV Wonder 650 was re-released. Apparently, all TV Wonder 650 cards pre-recall and post recall have an after manufacture rework on the back of the card and even some engineering samples had the rework as well. There has been no assurances that re-released cards sold today weren’t sold before in the initial defective release (once again citing the withholding of effected serial numbers).

The recall was apparently due to poor or nonexistent ATSC functionality even with an amplified antenna.

As far as I know, the re-released version of the TV Wonder 650 is still being sold with no indication of it being discontinued.

As for Canada, I cannot speak to this end. I do recall however an issue some time ago regarding Canada and the HDTV Wonder. Apparently the HDTV Wonder wasn’t initially sold in Canada in an official capacity which likely upset some would be Canadian buyers. Canadians who actually found a way to buy the HDTV Wonder during this time were denied technical support, which likely upset some actual Canadian buyers. I have heard that the HDTV Wonder was eventually sold in Canada officially and then later pulled and support was still denied. This is all unsubstantiated to me though since I am a US citizen.

At any rate, my guess is that the TV Wonder 650 will eventually be readily available in Canada but it will take some time and support could be sketchy.

[drumzac]

Octavean,

Thanks so much for the complete response. I really appreciate it.

So if I ordered online, had the card shipped to me, it should work ok? I would primarily be using the 650 for analog coaxial cable and capturing video from a video camera. I'm not too concerned about the FTA HD channels, although if I have that option I certainly would like it to work.

If I ordered now from an online source would it be a newer "fixed" version?

[Octavean]

Again I don’t really know that much about the Canadian market.

It’s my understanding that Canada uses NTSC and ATSC standards and as such the TV Wonder 650 should work but I could be wrong. However, sufficient ATSC OTA broadcasts may not be available in all areas.

Also note that there are very strong indications that the included “Catalyst Media Center” software is simply a modified version of Cyberlink PowerCinema 4 + Cyberlink MakeDVD 2.0 + some other additives such as the AVIVO transcode Utility. PowerCinema 4 shipped without a EPG for the USA (and Canada I think) and although Catalyst Media Center has an EPG for the USA there have been a number of reports that I have come across of it not working properly or at all.

Using ATSC functionality in applications like MCE 2K5 and Vista MCE in Canada can require some hacking to acquire proper guide info as well.

You should be able to use the card for your primary purpose but keep in mind that many video cameras today have both firewire and USB connections which wouldn’t require the need of such a card.

If you ordered now, you should receive the newer version.

Older recalled Part Number 100-703261
Newer reworked Part Number 100-715331

I have a TV Wonder 650 and I think it is an OK card that is serviceable but it isn’t worth the MSRP of $129 US / $149 CAD IMO. Ideally, IMO, its worth about half the MSRP but $80 ~to~ $90 US is a more realistic expectation,….not that you can find it at that price,….

The likelihood of the TV Wonder being forced into an either or analog / digital configuration under Vista MCE along with its known MCE 2K5 “Erroneous Error” bug serve to diminish the overall value of the product.

I cannot recommend the TV Wonder 650 but I wouldn’t try and dissuade anyone from buying it either. I would however recommend that those considering the TV Wonder 650 also research other tuners as well and make their buying decision accordingly.

[drumzac]

Thanks again for the great response. The video camera I mentioned in my previous post is an older VHS style that doesn't have USB or Firewire.

I also wouldn't be using this in a MCE machine anyway.

What other card(s) would you recommend? I'm open to anything that will give me a great picture quality and sound as well. I have an ATI Radeon x1600 Pro 512MB PCI-E card so a card with great video quality would be nice. From the pictures I see on the net the 650 chip does a great job. Anything comparable.

Thanks

[Octavean]

For your specific needs I don’t really have any readily available recommendations.

I have several Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 licenses and a free upgrade to Vista Home Premium (with Vista MCE). My needs are firmly rooted in the PVR applications of my choice and so too is the research that I have done in this respect (which differ greatly from your needs).

How about something like the Plextor PX-M402U $49.99 after rebate ?

Just a guess, I just don’t see paying $130 US on needs that are so modest.

[power]

Hi from Italy,
Does anyone know if any place has the pci-e version in stock?

[Bill T]

Hey,

Drumzac,
The TV Wonder 650 is available in Canada. We have only shipped 500 units across Canada. I am not sure where they all went but if you check www.canadacomputers.com they seem to have 2 in Mississauga, and 1 in Waterloo as of right now. I'm sure you can find more if you look around.
I seen octavean mentioned a cheaper tuner without OTA HD that may better suite your needs. I would like to mention that the analog picture quality on the TV Wonder 650 would be much better. So if quality is any concern to you I would still recomend the TV Wonder 650. If you are looking to save money, we also have the TV Wonder 200, wich retails about $80, Canadian $.


vddobrev ,
For the issue with dual 650's in MCE, this is not only an issue in MCE. I have been able to reproduce this issue in MCE and also CMC. I am pushing this issue to be fixed, and I will keep you up to date on what is being done, and there has been nothing done so far.
We do support dual TV Wonder 650's in MCE, but this issue is NOT an MCE issue, it is an issue with dual TV Wonder 650's in general.

Octavean,
There's not too much I can say about Vista MCE. We need to get microsoft to fix this issue for all hybrid tuners. It will likely be available in a vista update soon after the release. And if you are really desperate to switch to vista, and want to be able to switch between analog and digital easily, you can use CMC when we have it available. Either way, nothing will be ready until late January at the earliest.

Anyone interested,
As for my status at ATI/AMD, I work in the department "TV Products." A few things about me.. I am NOT tech support. I only come on hexus forums as a side job when I am not busy with testing. I am also NOT an engineer, but I work directly with them. To you, I am your inside man if you have any questions. And obviously I am restricted on many of the things that I can tell you, so I will do my best to answer most of your questions. And it is up to you to believe that or not, I am just trying to help out a bit.

[drumzac]

Bill T,

Thanks for the reply. I'm EXTREMELY iffy on buying anything from Canada Computers. I've had nothing but bad luck and legal battles with them over products I purchased back in 2001. Of course they aren't still on-going, but I refuse to shop there. I have one here in Kingston, ON, but as I said, I will not shop there ever again.

I suppose I can shop online and see what I can come up with. Even if I have to buy from BestBuy USA and have it shipped I don't mind. I'm sure it's worth the quality for what I've seen.

[bennor]

As Octavean has mentioned there is an issue with the CMC's EPG (TitanTV) not updating properly. There are a few comments on the Rage3d site (see the thread "Titan TV and Catalyst Media Center" in the Multimedia forum) that mention the TitanTV not updating. For me it hasn't updated in several weeks. I rarely use the EPG, but did notice recently when changing channels in the CMC, it reverted to only showing the channel number and not the additional EPG channel data that it once did in the lower half of the video window when the channel was changed. I have found however that when I start the CMC for the first time after turning on the computer, CMC displays a small icon in the task tray that says "TV Guide Connecting..." and justs sits there for hours (yes hours). It appears to connect to the internet for several minutes when it first shows up in the task tray, then it just seems stop accessing the internet. I have to kill the CMC app via Task Manager to get the icon to go away as it sometimes causes the computer to slow down when using other programs. Re-setting/running the wizard to re-activate the EPG does not solve this TitanTV update problem

The 650 in general works OK in Windows XP (non MCE) on a Core 2 Duo system. The CMC software seems to work OK, note it's not great, but just OK. The CMC does sometimes make me miss the MMC from my old AIW9700, which did have it's quirks, but worked generally well for many years. The digital TV picture on the 650 is extremly clear, however when the analog TV picture is viewed at full screen at 1280x1028 there appears to be some strange grainyness/slight bluring to the picture. Does anyone know if there any settings in the Catalyst Control Center that might affect the picture quality on the 650? For the record, I am using Sapphire X1900XT 256MB card in conjuction with the 650.

[denyart]

Bill, thanks for the update on the dual 650 issue. I appreciate your efforts to push this issue for a fix, and if you need me to do any testing at all feel free to ask. I have a fairly simple way to use ghost images to try different software conditions since I made a good ghost image right at the point where everything was installed except the video drivers and all the tuners and their drivers. I have used this to test a few things, and I can say in my system that even just two 650's have the standby issue even when no other tuners are installed and digital TV is disabled. If you could post a little note on where things stand (what hardware seems to be effected) that would be helpful for people if they are looking to make any buying decisions. Thanks again.

[AIW_VID_FAN]

bennor quote:

"The digital TV picture on the 650 is extremly clear, however when the analog TV picture is viewed at full screen at 1280x1028 there appears to be some strange grainyness/slight bluring to the picture. Does anyone know if there any settings in the Catalyst Control Center that might affect the picture quality on the 650? For the record, I am using Sapphire X1900XT 256MB card in conjuction with the 650."


I had to give up on CMC (PC4) with my XP setup (AIW9700,tvwonder650,AMD2700)
due to cmcservice.exe using 100%CPU, Its just got too many issues.

Regarding picture quality with the 650 analog tuner,
I found that a signal amplifier was needed on my cable feed,
It made a huge difference in my testing.
The 650 tuner picture quality is excellent, but I have not tested composite or S-video inputs , yet.
Its noticeably better than the 550 and the theatre 200 built in to the AIW9700.
I am currently using the 650 analog tuner with MMC 915, works fine,
but I am waiting for a driver update will allow ATSC tuner functionality with MMC.
Not sure what the fate of MMC will be, If ATI/AMD stops supporting it
maybe they will release it open source ! ?

Watch HDTV now supports the 650 ATSC tuner,nice!.(no cpu issues, etc)

[bennor]

AIW_VID_FAN its good (but not good) to see that I'm not the only one with problems with the cmcservice.exe hogging the CPU. It is frustrating when the CMC application is closed, but the EPG updating icon remains running and never stops. Killing the cmcservice.exe process causes the program to finally shut down.

I have already added a bidirectional amplifier to improve the analog picture quality, which it did. Its just when the video window is maximized full screen when my monitor is set to its recommended display size, I see a slight blurring in the video window. The trial version of Beyond TV did the same. This is something that did not happen with my AIW9700 (which I loved but I don't have an AGP slot in my new computer) and the MMC program. I am assuming it’s either the CMC, 650 drivers, or some setting in the CCC that is causing this.

I too wish that AMD/ATI would update the MMC to include full support for the 650. However, one thing that sucked with the later versions of MMC is the removal of the pause button when recording. It was disheartening to not see a pause button while recording in CMC. It was a great feature that helped when recording TV to remove those pesky commercials on the fly while recording.

There are some rumblings in various forums that the MMC will not be updated as the AIW line has supposedly been terminated. Which is really too bad since the AIW is a great piece of hardware, it's the software and drivers that have given it it's problems.

I am on the verge of dumping CMC and trying to find something else. I really hate to have to spend money on something like Beyond TV to accomplish what the CMC "SHOULD" be able to do. Or spend hours installing and testing the various free and or paid software that do either analog or HD OTA TV. Plus there are several other little quirks I've experienced with the CMC application like it crashing if the HD station is off air (or cannot be tuned in due to the antenna being moved), occasional crashing when attempting to recorded video to a DVD, and a somewhat frustrating menu structure to navigate.

Oh and it is nice to see that AMD/ATI still hasn't come with a way to fix the window explorer opening to the CMC folder when you first start windows. (Knowledge Base Article #737-22891). It's just one more annoying little quirk with the 650.

If the above sounds like a rant, in a way it is, I like the hardware, but I am getting a little tired of dealing with all the little quirks that come with the ATI drivers and software. (post edited for spelling)

[AIW_VID_FAN]

bennor:
Ah yes the old MMC pause button : ) , I have another AIW8500DV in another machine, just re installed ver 9.03 ,it can pause ! and its reliable.
I have had issues with 9.15 missing scheduled recordings.
I can tell you how to fix the CMC folder from opening, uninstall it.
Is your video problem only when fullscreen and possibly due to not keeping
the aspect ratio ?, does it go away when windowed?

I agree I hate to pay for Beyondtv4 but it works well in testing.
I think I am going to have to try XP MCE.
I agree the AIW/MMC history has been rough at times.
I suppose that is why they now put there excellent hardware at
the mercy of a 3rd party, sounds like a management decision
from people who have never acctually USED these products they "manage".
I have begged ATI support for MMC support, emailed customer relations,
even spoke with a rep. who called my home in response to the email.
This was in regards to my Elite 550 and MMC support. It now works (a year later) but I have recently been told by support the 550 is still not supported by MMC.
Very confusing and frustrating , Maybe Bill T. can comment on MMCs current and future support of the 550 and 650 TV Wonder cards ?.

[bennor]

AIW_VID_FAN the distortion when viewing full screen at 1280x1024 is tough to discribe, it is almost as if the 650 tuner is decoding the analog tv signal for a smaller sized window, and when displayed larger than it's decoding size it blurs the picture slightly to accomidate the larger window size. I barely notice this blurring when the video window is at its normal unmaximized size (around 800x600). Or perhaps it's possible the the Catalyst Control Center is intercepting the video display and changing the interlacing (I think that's the term for it). I tried to screen cap the window, but the capture doesn't display video, just a black background. Another quirk. This was a nice feature of the MMC, the ability to capture to a graphic file what was displayed on screen.

I have played with the various settings in the CMC and CCC to try and fix the blurryness issue to no avail. I've also installed the "control panel" program on the 650 drivers page and played with those settings as well but didn't notice any change in the video quality. The audio level though says at the highest setting now with this control panel applet audio setting set to it's highest setting when I open and close the CMC program.

With my AIW9700 I stopped using the MMC past version where they introduced the unified WMD drivers which I think was after version 9.06 or 9.08. It was also around that time they removed the pause button.

[herrdoktor]

I'm looking for help. Previously built my own HTPC and it worked perfectly with the HDTV Wonder and 550 pro w/ MCE. Not very quiet.
Purchased an HP S7900N Slim PC. Removed modem from the one PCI slot and custom fit, (cut the backplate) a Theater 650 Pro. Using an amplified antenna I can not get all the same HD stations that I get w/ the HDTV Wonder. Also it seems all of the SD or HD stations have no red color. All reds show as blue. No skin tones. Cable channels all work fine. I moved to this new set up because it is almost completely silent and very small. I'm wishing I would have stayed with my old machine. Ideas anyone?