Making Drivers Cars?

[Russ]

Ferrari 2004 f1 car proves you wrong straight off im afraid dude, the main reason being not that it ain;t possible to have a very quick fwd just that mid-engined rwd cars are the easier to make quicker while keeping decent handling, 4wd is imo the way forward for driving safely at the limit, ever seen russ swift in an evo? its perfectly recoverable from damn near anything he does with it, technology and 4wd makes that car what it is, a 300bhp, 4 door, fwd car wouldn't work nearly aswell.

4wd IS amazing, and your right, it would does stick to the road even when itin the red. but my argument was, theres alot of FWD cars thatare faster and more fun to drive than most rwd cars.

and you cant use F! know unless i can find a V10 900break feather light fwd to tell you about

[Jiff Lemon]

To go off at a slight tangent, when the skyline was first introduced to these shores, an MP started a campaign to have them banned. "Sucks ass!" I hear you cry, however, his reasoning behind it went like this:

With Blistering power, 4WD, active diffs and the electronic gismos the skyline came laden with, the car quite virtually take the laws of physics and hide the book; It could out-corner anything on the road and at silly speeds too. Thanks to the electronic gismos, it would take the most Noob of drivers and help them drive like a god.

However, reasoned our man, there is a point where physics will have to take over and all the gadjets in the world won't save your ass. At this point, it was likely that some small village would get wiped off the map.

[hotpurple]

actually, appart from abs the mk1 would be sellable new - hense how katarams/morgans get thru..

Actually Caterhams go through SVA, not type approval, which means they don't have to conform to the safety rules like more mass produced cars.

Chris

[Rave]

4wd is safer yes but not faster,take touring cars for instance,they have 300-330bhp and what cars are the fastest?fwd followed by rwd and then 4wd,

They have different weight limits for different drive layouts. fwd are lightest, then rwd, then 4wd. When Audi fielded their quattros 10 years ago they wiped the floor with everyone until they were made heavier to compensate.

Rich :¬)

[TiG]

They have different weight limits for different drive layouts. fwd are lightest, then rwd, then 4wd. When Audi fielded their quattros 10 years ago they wiped the floor with everyone until they were made heavier to compensate.

Rich :¬)

Damn right there Rich, My uncle sponsored a Formula vauxhall junior team in those days, so i was lucky enough to get into the pits for two race days with them, the best one being at silverstone being increadibly close the the touring cars in the pits.

Those where the days where touring cars was superb, talking 10 different manufacturers, with audi winning the lot with a superbly sorted a4 with 4wd. The only other thing was the bit of volvo 850 i got after one of them decided to wipe it out

TiG

[Rave]

Sorted. Racecars (and bikes) rule, every component on them reeks of quality engineering and manufacturing. I should have got on my knees and begged Prodrive for a job at the end of my work experience with them.

Rich :¬)

[Jiff Lemon]

ah touring cars..... Everything was going peachy until Alfa turned up.....

You can't really compare FWD/RWD/4WD drive racecars as they don't really work with the same rule book as a road car.

[5lab]

racecars are not drivers cars anyways, a drivers car should have reasonably soft suspension so that drifts are easy to 'feel' and control, wheras a race car will have very stiff suspension which will result in a faster drive but more dificult to control.

[Rave]

racecars are not drivers cars anyways, a drivers car should have reasonably soft suspension so that drifts are easy to 'feel' and control, wheras a race car will have very stiff suspension which will result in a faster drive but more dificult to control.

Yeah? I find the soft suspension on most road cars is a menace, and makes it difficult to feel what the car is doing. It has a tendency to unload and make the car wobble about. A racecar will generally run the softest suspension setup it can without causing too much body roll or wallowing, softer suspension keeps the tyres in contact with the track better over bumps.

Rich :¬)

[5lab]

soft compared to a race car i meant, stiff for a road car is still well soft for a racecar..

[Rave]

Not necessarily, it depends how bumpy the track is. Anyway, I disagree; a race driver will go fastest if they're driving their car at the limit. If they can't feel where the limit is, then they'll either drive below it, or go beyond it and spin/crash. No feel= no win.

Rich :¬)

[5lab]

yeah but my point is that a racing driver is more skilled than a normal driver, so can feel the limit better. thus can cope with harder suspension which is less forgiving than slightly softer stuff..

[schrickvr6]

whats the point in drivers cars for people who can't drive(very well)?

[5lab]

so they can enjoy driving. i doubt very much that anyone in here could handle a formula 1 car very well. a drivers car should imo be easy to control and forgiving, rather than something that is very quick but once you loose it youve had it

[Vimeous]

Hugely interesting read this thread. Some pennies of my own:

While I agree it could be difficult to define a drivers car I believe the way we term it here is not as simple as "I feel comfortable driving it". It's far beyond that and which wheels are driven is largely irrelevant.
A drivers car is one with which the driver can become 'one' with. The car is an extension of the driver, the driver of the car, the fact both exist is little matter as together they operate as a single entity.

What makes a drivers car?
Steering that gives the nth level of feedback without kick-back, finely honed suspension that reads the road and communicates through the seats ever nuiance of the surface and situation without crashing, banging and jarring the driver, throwing the car off course. The subtle balance between spring and damper rates makes all the difference between the car screaming at you and it subtly transmitting the vital information through the seat of your pants to your spine where you can react subconciously.
Massive wheels and rubber-band tyres are a waste on B-roads unless the stiffness and body-control of the structure helps to prevent tramlining and ridge-chasing.
Of course any drivers car must be able to transmit the drivers inputs back to the road faithfully, accurately and without corruption. Some cars feel detached and remote despite all the information they provide leading to a one-way conversation where the driver is left just dropping hints as to the direction and attitude of travel.

Zak mentions agility and indeed that is the key but crucially weight is less important than attaining that crucial balance. A 911 is north of 1.5tons these days but it is still agile.

My ingredients for a great drivers ROAD-car are:

• Delicately balanced spring & damper rates.
  Low-as-you-can-go centre-of-gravity (the lower, the heavier the car can be without sacrificing agility)
  Tyres with some sidewall.
  Delicately balanced steering, fast from lock-to-lock but not overly aggressive and unforgiving. (Hyperactive steering is hugely tiring when simply crusing badly surfaced A-roads)
  Super-stiff bodyshell to allow all the other components to work at their best.
  The 'right' seat and seating position for you as a driver to give you access to all the controls while being in full command of the vehicle.

There are bound to be others but I view these as basic elements without which a great road-car cannot be built. To top it off you need a innate understanding of how to achieve the aim. An Elise is a great car because it's low-weight could easily equal harsh-bouncy ride through firm suspension and yet the balance is right, the tub is rigid, the suspension is finely tuned to stick like a limpet and yet it's not going send you for back-surgery.
Read a magasine review of a TVR. Doesn't do well on the track and yet it's an awesome road car. Why? Softer rear suspension to cope with A and B-roads nasties and get the best traction on uneven surfaces.

There are massive lists of drivers cars that strike the balance better than the rest. Their weight, driven wheels, even engine location and type vary widely and just go to show that given the right ingredients and some decent know-how a real drivers car can be just about anything:

BMW M5 (F/R N/A + pick any version);
VW Corrado (F/F N/A or S/C);
Toyota MR2 MK1 (M/R N/A);
Honda NSX (M/R N/A);
Porsche 911 (R/R N/R or T);
Mitsubishi EVO VI (F/4 T);

P.s.
My own Civic is not a drivers car, not quite anyway. The engine character is spot-on, the grip and bump-absorbtion are great to the point where less-sorted cars are backing off through the bumpy twisties as I dissappear over the horizon.
However body control isn't great, 80k+ miles has softened her too much and the c-of-g is way to high so body roll is controlled but still a problem. I find myself setting her up for corners to counter the body-movement, waiting mid-corner for her to settle before panting the loud pedal where other cars have no need as they stay balanced and flat regardless of speed and corner angle.
I do love drive her though, she's a lovely mota

[J4MES]

drivers car? one word...

Mazda. As in MX-5/Roadster. Perfect weigh/power/grip/steering balance, completely involving but predictable, drive one and BELIEVE!!!!!!!

Oh, and mine's for sale btw