200+ Bhp in FWD cars

[TiG]

I guess this has been on my mind for a while, i know the feeling of my front wheels scrabbling for grip if i decide to plant my 180bhp through my front wheels in the wet.

Having watched top gear on Sunday to see all the new hot hatches having 200+ bhp i've started to wonder what is the point. The Astra VXR sure was nice, cheaper than the others, and the new astra does look nice, but 240bhp made it ultimate scrabbler...

I think i understand the cost implications of going RWD and hence why most mass market cars don't go this route, but i'm trying to come up with some scenario in my head where a 180bhp rwd car will just trash 240bhp fwd car.

Where is the cut of point that makes it more sensible to give hot hatches RWD?.

TiG

[doll]

I have got 230bhp in the vRS, doesnt give me any problems at all. Lowe can vouch for the amount of grip in the car as he has also driven/had a flutter with a beemer (git!).

During the really bad rain at the weekend, I put ASR on as the roads as a whole were slippy. But that is the only time I have used it.

[Stoo]

I suppose the cut off point will be when people don't buy them because the handling is so dire, rather than buying them to sound off in the pub - "my ride has 26 squillion horses!!!111oneonetwoone"

After all, there's only so much of your customer base you can wrap around a tree before they start to get a bit nervous.. (unless your name is TVR )

[[GSV]Trig]

Most modern cars have traction controll and other boring stuff like that to stop you putting all the power down n going sideways up the road...
atm I'm running my cally in FWD and trust me thats a bit more interesting.
If a cars designed for it then its not really a problem, Neil's Astra was running P4 in a mk2 astra with road slicks and an LSD and that was ok when u mashed the loud pedal...

[Lowe]

Don't forget all these new cars also weigh a hell of a lot more than old cars which gave FWD it's scrabbler reputation. Nowadays with more weight over the wheels 200bhp isn't the limit. Certainly around the early 90's that was the limit, but not any more.

I'll quote Jiff here:

FWD and RWD - the only difference these days is which way you go through the hedge; forwards or backwards.

[schrickvr6]

Well ATM i've got 211WHP(260-265HP at the fly) and i get no problems in the dry, although it has got stupidly high gearing (75mph in 2nd, 5th is theoretically good for 176mph)

Soon i'll be fitting my vortech charger which will give me around 300WHP so that should be fun.

[Butuz]

In any 2wd car with 200+bhp scrabble is only gonna be an issue in first gear and maybe second. Once you get into third and above the extra power does make a huge difference. Eg on the motorway, 60-100mph in 3rd you shouldnt get wheelspin (unless you have silly bhp)

The fact of the matter is - RWD is better than FWD at transferring power onto the road, that is why all proper performance cars are RWD (or 4wd in some cases) and not FWD.

300+bhp in a FWD car just doesnt work as proven by many turbo/supercharged civic type r's that are around and pulling crap times down the strip.

Butuz

[[GSV]Trig]

Aye, extra weight and more elastictrickery, makes it a bit more boring eh, cant wait till Neil gets his Autronic sorted, should make for some interesting drives in a stripped mk2 ashtray lol

[Zak33]

while I love rwd, the FWD with 240 bhp is a lot less likely to bite you in the bum

A rear wheel driver with 240 ish is a small handfull in the wet.....the front driver a smaller handfull.

OK the rwd will get away from stationary quicker, but after a few 60 mph wet greasy bends, he's gonna need big appendages twixt his legs to hold off a well driven front driver.

99% of thw world can be taught high bhp fwd cars.....the others can try the rwd beasts.
Going 200 bhp + in your Skoda is the way mate. You just need to be canny with the throttle.

Control.

[Nox]

Well ATM i've got 211WHP(260-265HP at the fly) and i get no problems in the dry, although it has got stupidly high gearing (75mph in 2nd, 5th is theoretically good for 176mph)

Soon i'll be fitting my vortech charger which will give me around 300WHP so that should be fun.

flippin eck

Nox

[5lab]

today i had the joy (?) of driving a mg zr 160 today, which is a small, nippy 1.8 fwd hatch, and it was quite fun (reasonable handling, very nippy etc). however you do have to be careful when accellerating off the line. being used to a 75bhp rwd car, a 160 bhp fwd car is quite a shocker..

that said, traction control can take care of all of that.. there isnt really a limit. with a sorted lsd, traction control and equal length driveshafts (to avoid torquesteer), you have a good car, regardless of the fact its fwd.

incidentally - j talked about torquesteer - but it didnt really steer that much.. i mean cmon, on its own it only pulled a tiny bit, hands on teh wheel its no difficulty to keep it under control..

[Butuz]

that said, traction control can take care of all of that.. there isnt really a limit. with a sorted lsd, traction control and equal length driveshafts (to avoid torquesteer), you have a good car, regardless of the fact its fwd.

The main problem with FWD cars is that when you accelerate the weight shifts off the front wheels and onto the back wheels - so you lose front wheel grip every time you need it most.

incidentally - j talked about torquesteer - but it didnt really steer that much.. i mean cmon, on its own it only pulled a tiny bit, hands on teh wheel its no difficulty to keep it under control..

Hehe well the MG ZT is a luke warm hatch not a hot hatch, hop in a focus RS or anything else thats FWD with a LSD and then see how you fare with the torque steer.

Butuz

[jon bda]

Friend of mine had a 2 litre S2 RS Turbo with nigh on 300BHP, that was mad...especially in the wet...

[PMM]

Did not TopGear in a previous series have an modded Alfa 147 with over 300Bhp FWD
that went like smelly stuff off a shovel ?

[Vimeous]

My Civic has an LSD.
It really helps keep the wheels just the right-side of spinning.
Does make me wonder how one particular 300bhp+ version of my car fares though! (http://forum.hondarevolutions.com/setups/?setupID=126)

[Phantom69]

The Astra VXR used in the Top Gear show was an older version prior to final spec (the test was filmed months ago), the VXR brand manager Stu Harris has been quoted as saying:

" the fact that journalists from Autocar , EVO etc have all lapped the nurburgring in sub 9 mins with the same car and not once mentioned the issue interested us.

We have concluded that this particular Stig can't drive fwd , and what he did to the Golf was ridiculous.

The car Clarkson drove had the wrong (std) front uprights and incorrect dampers. We pointed this out but they wanted it anyway because of the schedule.....

HTH

Stu"

So we'd probably best reserve opinions until it comes out in october. (I've already ordered one so I'll let you know!)

P69