£9000 to spend on >grp 16 hot hatch, what would you go for?

[schmunk]

LOL, anyone who thinks the old mini is better than the new one, needs to drive one. I learned to drive in an old mini - it was the worst can I have ever ever ever driven. It was designed about 50 years ago ffs and has the engineering of a Flintstones car!!!

There's a similar thread in the gaming forum, where Stewart is arguing that Doom is a better computer game than Half Life 2. The older item may have been ground-breaking, utterly astounding in its time, but all things considered is not a patch on the newer item, even if the newer one is not best in its class.

[Fox]

Exactly. It was a huge innovation. How could a car so small on the outside be so big on the inside? Handling was ground breaking.

The new mini is the complete oppsite. How can such a big fat git of a car have such f**k all room in it? There is as much room in the back of a new mini as there was in the old mini. Real innovative stuff as usual from BMW.

But the reasoning is obvious.

When the old Mini was introduced, consumers expected 4 wheels, 4 seats, a steering wheel, a heater and windows that opened. Seriously, thats it. Expectations were so low you didn't even get a stereo to start with. So, they could be very small car. Safety? Whats that?

Today, the market is different. Before you even consider what consumers want, you have to satisfy legislation, very STRICT legislation which not only states how the car should perform for the occupants in a crash but even makes you take into account how it hits pedestrians. Then you have to take into account whats expected in a £10k supermini - it has to have at least power steering, electric windows, 6 airbags, yes, at least 6 airbags, CD player, space for air conditioning if required, etc etc etc.

It's just NOT possible to get all that stuff into such a small space and still meet the needs of government legislation.

Yes, the new Mini is bigger, no, its nowhere near as innovative as the old one was but to be honest, with the current set of critiera, it's a bloody good car.

[Barakka]

I personally like the new Mini, didn't at first, but after driving one on a track day I'm learning to like them a little more...

But Butuz has a point, they are very big on the outside for the lack of space on the inside, and yes safety has it's part in this, but Suzuki's new Swift is not as big as the mini outside, and has more room inside... and gets the same NCAP Occupant score, and a much higher score for pedestrians. To me BMW tried too hard to play on the elements of the old mini's design they were bringing to the interior (and exterior for that matter), and made it a bit too "cartoony"...

[TiG]

Can i just say that the nice thing about having money to buy a car with is that you can really happily walk into a dealer and test cars out.

Get yourself a list of 5 or 6 that you really like and then go and test them. Its the best thing to do not only because you get more experience of different cars but you also feel how they drive.

IF thats the one thing i've learnt different cars drive different and i'm a TURBO man all the way. I love the low down power and grunt from 2k all the way through to 5.5k topping out at 6k.

I don't want to keep my revs between 4 and 7 or 8k.

I found the seat's horrible in build quality compared to the skoda believe it or not. Sure drove well nice but i felt like i'd break the dash if i touched it.

And the difference between 130 and 180ish BHP is huge!. I remember trying a 2.0 Sport Mazda 323 when i was lookign at cars before i settled on the Skoda Octavia VRS and drivin g them both in the same day was a complete eye opener.

Same road, and i though the mazda was quick to accelerate hehe. I'm still blown away by my cars acceleration

TIG

[schmunk]

IF thats the one thing i've learnt different cars drive different and i'm a TURBO man all the way. I love the low down power and grunt from 2k all the way through to 5.5k topping out at 6k.

I don't want to keep my revs between 4 and 7 or 8k.
TIG

Surely the main problem with Turbocharged engines is that they have relatively little power at low revs...

[5lab]

Can i just say that the nice thing about having money to buy a car with is that you can really happily walk into a dealer and test cars out.

Get yourself a list of 5 or 6 that you really like and then go and test them. Its the best thing to do not only because you get more experience of different cars but you also feel how they drive.

IF thats the one thing i've learnt different cars drive different and i'm a TURBO man all the way. I love the low down power and grunt from 2k all the way through to 5.5k topping out at 6k.

I don't want to keep my revs between 4 and 7 or 8k.

I found the seat's horrible in build quality compared to the skoda believe it or not. Sure drove well nice but i felt like i'd break the dash if i touched it.

And the difference between 130 and 180ish BHP is huge!. I remember trying a 2.0 Sport Mazda 323 when i was lookign at cars before i settled on the Skoda Octavia VRS and drivin g them both in the same day was a complete eye opener.

Same road, and i though the mazda was quick to accelerate hehe. I'm still blown away by my cars acceleration

TIG

turbos typically have their power higher up the range as the turbo has to spool up.. if you want to keep the revs in this range, get a tdi - it'll sort you a treat. modern na cars use tricks like variable valve lifts and timing to give extra umph at high revs, which is why typically you need to rag the nads off a car like this - a single, high pressure turbo would make this problem worse, but most modern turbos (taht come as stock) are either 2-stage (to allow small boost and a fast spin up, then lots of power) or low pressure turbos, that actually have less impact higher up the rev range, but even out the torque curve..

the irony of this is that modern tubbies drive much like na cars of old, and modern na cars drive much like old turbos (albeit without the lag)


as for the mini points - the new mini is a good car - its reasonably well built, very reliable, cheap to run (due to the servicing packages) and holds its value like nothing else. as a spacious car its crap. its not a utilitarian vehical - its a fashion statement, like the beetle or the tt. it does handle (apparently) very well, and is a much better all-round car than the origonal. is it as groundbreaking? no way. is it as well packaged? no. but its about the same economy-wise, quicker, quieter and so on. dont get the mini if you carry a lot of luggage or more than one adult, if you dont do either of these its a great hot hatch and oft overlooked.

[dangel]

Kick in for the turbo on a 1.8T engine (VAG) is actually very low, simply because it's quite a small turbo compared to say that in the scooby which comes in much later. Certainly i'm on the go at 2k Dyno plots available if you're interested... It's true to say that's it's long gone by you hit the limiter, but it's not really relevant on a six speed box and real world driving as much as you'd think.

[Konan555]

Their website quotes 1315kg for the VRs as kerbweight.. First I've heard manu's quoting figures for loaded cars - usually it's done with fuel but 3 people/luggage of indeterminate weight?

Kerb weights are normally the empty car but with all the fluids up to full (so a 50Kg or so swing from the fuel tank etc etc)

[dangel]

Kerb weights are normally the empty car but with all the fluids up to full (so a 50Kg or so swing from the fuel tank etc etc)

Yeah - see my post for the linky - it looks like a Skoda Brochure mistake..