Zak, g8ina, Lowe...you lot are a bad influence....

[Terbinator]

...taking into account this was a 3.5mm jack to 2x RCA cable (albeit a good quality one) ...

Am i missing something glaringly obvious in regards to the above connector and quality?
AFAIK if i was to wire my soundcard up to an amp that would be the only connection to use (outside of a digital set-up)?

[dave87]

Concept wise, it is fine - it is the quality of the specific lead used to connect the two devices I think we are talking about.

The better quality, the better the sound is likely to be, though how noticeable a difference it will make is another topic.

[g8ina]

Home Theatre - Denon AVR-2809 + 2x Acoustic Energy (AE) Evo 3, 2x AE Evo One, 1x AE Evo Centre

Now feels pig sick

I want my EVO3s back !

(at my ex wife's)

[scaryjim]

Am i missing something glaringly obvious in regards to the above connector and quality?
AFAIK if i was to wire my soundcard up to an amp that would be the only connection to use (outside of a digital set-up)?

Concept wise, it is fine - it is the quality of the specific lead used to connect the two devices I think we are talking about.

Don't worry terb, you're not missing anything, I was just trying to be specific about the equipment I was using. My setup before this one involved a 3.5mm stereo plug to 2x 3.5mm mono jack cable (i.e. a stereo to L/R mono splitter), two 3.5mm stereo plug-to-plug cables, and two stereo 3.5mm - 6.5mm jack-to-plug adapters, each plugged into the (mono) L/R 6.5mm jack inputs of a combo amp! That didn't make my jaw ache, but considering the botch nature of the connection, it sounded rather good!


Indeed, the point I was making was more to do with *not* using any fancy specialist equipment or digital outputs, just the headphone out from my phone, and still getting a sound that made my jaw ache from grinning. I don't know why - after all, I'm theoretically a semi-pro sound tech and should *know* this - but I never ceased to be amazed at the difference a *good* pair of speakers can make

[Terbinator]

My setup before this one involved a 3.5mm stereo plug to 2x 3.5mm mono jack cable (i.e. a stereo to L/R mono splitter), two 3.5mm stereo plug-to-plug cables, and two stereo 3.5mm - 6.5mm jack-to-plug adapters, each plugged into the (mono) L/R 6.5mm jack inputs of a combo amp! That didn't make my jaw ache, but considering the botch nature of the connection, it sounded rather good!

Ugh, *all* that added noise. Won't someone think of the children!

I've enough 3.5mm > 2x phonos to supply 8 channels but I'm guessing they're not all that great as they were supplied by Asus with the card and don't even have gold-plating.

Although analog is (somewhat ?) inevitable in the chain, I thought i'd left the audio-cable quality race behind however.

[scaryjim]

... Although analog is (somewhat ?) inevitable in the chain, I thought i'd left the audio-cable quality race behind however.

Naah, at the very least it needs considering between the amp and the speakers

I've never set that much store by the whole gold-plated thing, as that just introduces another bi-metallic boundary into the chain. I suspect the quality of the cable is far more important than the plating of the connector. So unless someone's going to sell me a solid gold audio cable, I'll go for more copper in my wires, rather than more gold on my connectors

[format]

One of these days I will really have to get a proper set up.

Is it worth getting a dedicated amp as well as an AV amp? Or will a decent AV amp do it?

[dave87]

Ah, the speaker wire question.


I've used some stuff I bought from Amazon - 322 strand 99.9% OFC stuff which was unbranded. Seems to do the job fine. But, the question is whether

a) to bi-amp from the Denon PMA-510AE and
b) equal or unequal lengths for left & right?

Currently, I have them single wired (so not biamped/biwired) to the Denon. I've used the same length of cable for both left and right speakers - despite the left speaker being next to the amp.

So, what difference does length of speaker wire make? And should I bi-wire/bi-amp them? (the Denon has A and B speaker outputs - so I can use both at the same time)

[dave87]

One of these days I will really have to get a proper set up.

Is it worth getting a dedicated amp as well as an AV amp? Or will a decent AV amp do it?

Mine are in two completely different rooms, running different speakers, so it is hard to make a fair comparison between the two. That and I've only had the 2 channel Denon amp for less than a day, so not experienced it in as broad a range of scenarios.

As I understand it, if you simply want decent stereo audio an integrated amp is the way to go. I'm sure the audiophiles will correct me if I'm wrong, but there are oft made comments about the purity of the sound (so much so both the Denons I've got has a 'Source Direct mode' to cut out any tone/balance adjustment entirely - giving the purest sound possible from the hardware inside. The AV Receiver also has to deal with video on top of the audio, and more audio channels concurrently and deal with the multitude of differing formats it needs to support - DTS Dolby Digital etc etc. Which is why spec for spec, the AVReceiver costs more I would guess.

All those extras that a multichannel receiver adds are completely unnecessary if you only want 2 channel sound from a 2 channel source - the amp literally needs to take the source and amplify it - it doesn't need to process it etc.

However, a 2 channel amp isn't very good if you want to deal with 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 etc etc. By the same reasoning as above, it lacks the ability to decode and deal with the multichannel audio formats that an AVR has to deal with.

So, if you want a stereo - grab an amp. If you want 5.1 or more, even if you only start with say left and right, go for the AVR. Go for the latter if you want the amp to switch the video for you aswell - Amps won't do that

[Terbinator]

Could quite easily recommend your A/V receiver for both receiving and amplifying Dave?

[dave87]

Could quite easily recommend your A/V receiver for both receiving and amplifying Dave?

Quite happily. I've used the system mentioned for everything from xBox & PS3 gaming, BluRay (through the PS3), SkyHD - inc Movies in HD - and that is undoubtedly where its strengths lie. First time I watched a BluRay in 5.0 (not yet purchased a sub for the setup), I was blown away. I'd previously had a near top of the range Panasonic 5.1 Home Theatre Kit (SC-HT900 if you want to google it) and this knocked it into next week.

Alongside that, however, it does very well in giving me the sound quality I wanted from CDs, and to a certain extent, Digital Radio through the SkyHD box. If I literally run the two channel input through the left and right floor standers - I get a very musical reproduction of the CDs I'm listening to. Prime example is The Very Best of Smooth Jazz which I've listened to on a number of systems.

It was the first CD I tried on the AVR-2809 and the first I tried on the PMA-510 - using the same CD Player. On both it sounded very good. The AVR has the floor standers hooked to it, the PMA has just bookshelf speakers, so there is a difference there, and also the floor standers are biamped, where as the bookshelf speakers aren't currently. Both are enjoyable, but both had different sounds. It was evident the floorstanders had more bass, that is a given, but in terms of enjoyment - I can honestly say both were very enjoyable. I've nowhere near the knowledge/time/enthusiasm to setup exactly equal listening scenarios, and I dare say I wouldn't gain much even if I did.

So yes, I would quite happily recommend an AVR, even for stereo duties. That said, there is always a but, and this is no exception. Budget. The RRP of the AVR2809 I've got was around £1000 when launched (£1050 when reviewed by WhatHiFi) where as the RRP of the PMA-510AE was, I believe, around £300 when new. That is a big difference, especially if you don't need the extra channels. Added to that Denon no longer make a 28xx and the fact you either have to choose the 3312 (£1000 again on launch, now down to £650ish online) or the 2312 (£800 on launch, £480 online now), though I must admit, I haven't looked closely at the differences in spec between the 2809 I've got and the newer models. I happily paid more because I wanted 5.1 (well, the amp can do 7.1 but I've chosen BiAmped front 5.1 instead) and I wanted it to handle the multitude of sources I was going to connect to my TV.

Bear in mind, however, I picked up the PMA-510AE for £150 from a Richer Sounds store this morning. For my study where it is going to be connected to my PC, a CD player and possibly an iPod - I didn't need any of the extra complexity of the AVR, nor did the budget stretch to one. So the integrated amp was a better choice.

And that is perhaps the point - if you want to start building a multi-channel AV system, go for the AVR - I doubt you'll regret it. If you want a decent stereo, you can save yourself a fair few quid and grab the integrated amplifier. I've done both - and for the rooms they are in and the uses I have for them, I think I've made the right choices.

[g8ina]

Bi-amp, yes - empiral data suggests this is better.
Equal cable lengths, yes - could give rise to minute phase errors otherwise (hardly noticable really).

PC output is not going to be fantastic under any circumstances, except digital, so maybe top end interconnects are OTT.

Most decent AV amps are as good as a dedicated stereo only amp, unless you pay silly money for a valve amp

[dave87]

Thought my gut feeling about equal lengths being better was right (same way I've wired the home theatre setup). Good to know bi-amping does make a difference

Re: PC Output. Purely out of interest, rather than any impending plan to do so - I've got an XFi, which will be better than onboard audio - but my guess is for the best sound from a PC you'd need either an audiophile grade soundcard or digital out from any soundcard to an external DAC, then to the amp? I can't see any weakenesses (except for the quality of the DAC) in the second setup - as the PC is only transferring digital audio...?

oh, and...

Now feels pig sick

I want my EVO3s back !

(at my ex wife's)

They are good

[aidanjt]

Damn, you spotted the secret weapon....adds extra 'something' to the sound

It just adds a bit of colour.

[Terbinator]

Re: PC Output. Purely out of interest, rather than any impending plan to do so - I've got an XFi, which will be better than onboard audio...

+1 on this. We need answers g8ina!

Edit: What would be some good bookshelves for ~£100. I've come across some Q Acoustics 2020's for £109 but apparently the 2020i's are better but I'm not sure by how much?

[g8ina]

I would say XFi analogue out is the absolute minimum.

There are some fantastic audio cards out there, including outboard stuff.

Just have a hunt around and see what you can find.

Of course an outboard DAC would be best (Hmmmm, do I have one for sale ? Maybe).