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Thread: AMD - Zen chitchat

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    It doesn't explain why Windows 7 still seems to do a better job though with games.
    I'm not sure anything ever will. Too many variables between the two OSes to pin it down, beyond wild speculation.

    Loonkranz demonstration of issues with core affinity/SMT under Windows 10 might have an impact. Some games may have different optimisations coded in for Win 7 and Win 8/10. Some games might not have optmisations coded in for Win 7 and is just allowing the scheduler to do its thing. Win 7 may just have a different set of overheads that play better with Ryzen CPUs. It may even be that a particular instruction isn't available on Win 7 and whatever it falls back to happens to be more performant on Ryzen.

    WAY too many variables to get a clear picture...

  2. #146
    £1000 Tesco Value Beer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I'm not sure anything ever will. Too many variables between the two OSes to pin it down, beyond wild speculation.

    Loonkranz demonstration of issues with core affinity/SMT under Windows 10 might have an impact. Some games may have different optimisations coded in for Win 7 and Win 8/10. Some games might not have optmisations coded in for Win 7 and is just allowing the scheduler to do its thing. Win 7 may just have a different set of overheads that play better with Ryzen CPUs. It may even be that a particular instruction isn't available on Win 7 and whatever it falls back to happens to be more performant on Ryzen.

    WAY too many variables to get a clear picture...
    I think I am going to hold off until Ryzen 2 and see how things look then. I just don't want to spend £340 on a 120ish MM2 quad core!!


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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    I know the exchange rate at the time had a lot to do with it, but I remember £150 buying you a very capable CPU or GPU!
    Go on, have a laugh at some historic prices. £285 for a Pentium MMX 233, or £250 for the AMD "equivalent" if you didn't care about having a pipelined FPU. Top end Pentium Pro was £750, that is with only 17.5% VAT, and they were real pounds in those days

    https://web.archive.org/web/19971010...ww.scan.co.uk/

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The problem is I am not sure if AMD PR has again contradicted themselves - if the R5 lower end SKUs have 8MB,does that mean they can partially disable the L3 cache per CCX now??
    I'm sure they always could, but while having the cache physically laid out as part of a CCX, depending on how it is attached to the fabric that doesn't make it *logically* part of the CCX. It would make it really easy to lay out new 4, 12 or 16 core parts though having them in little cluster. There was mention somewhere that all cores have the same *average* latency to all of the L3 which could mean just about anything.

    It does sound like the L3 cache is in per core strips, they could be disabling every other strip or they could be disabling half of each strip. They probably have the ability to do both.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I think I am going to hold off until Ryzen 2 and see how things look then. I just don't want to spend £340 on a 120ish MM2 quad core!!
    The 6 core sounds interesting to me, but am facing redundancy so toys have to wait

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    Senior Member Xlucine's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    I'm not sure what has happened to intel's pentiums, but they've lost the plot

    https://ark.intel.com/products/95591...-up-to-2_6-GHz

    Dell are selling this in a full-size desktop. Why does this exist? Why would anyone choose this, other than to skimp out on copper in the heatsink? The i3, i5 and i7s at least have some kind of sensible progression, these pentiums are just throwing concepts at the wall to see what'll stick

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Yes, that Atom Pentium doesn't belong in a desktop, but since 2008 Intel haven't known what to do with Atom. They were always so worried about cheap parts destroying the margin on their Core lineup that they crippled Atom in every way they could. Like chipsets, Atom seemed to mostly be a way to keep old fabs busy.

    Then when phones and tablets started to get really big, in desperation they threw a few $billion (est. $4billion+) at the problem but still nobody wanted them. Being Intel they had lots of money to throw at stuff. All the extra money people paid for Intel CPUs over the years basically got spend on price dumping.

    With their mad x86 everywhere strategy they were going to be at a disadvantage size-wise in mobile. Although with today's transistor budgets the x86 overhead is probably not that great anymore. No, the reason ARM is successful is that they have generous and flexible licensing so anyone who needs custom parts can get them. Intel's licensing is almost non-existent and far from flexible.

    Recently, Intel seem to be panicking about how they will fill their fabs as 10nm, 7nm etc. will require even more volume. Yet their crazy segmentation and short-sighted worry about Atom etc. cannibalising their other lines are the main cause of this.

    As someone who was never that happy to pay Intel's inflated prices and who remember the kind of antics they did the last time AMD was competitive, Schadenfreude is the only word which springs to mind about Intel's current difficulties.

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    £1000 Tesco Value Beer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I'm sure they always could, but while having the cache physically laid out as part of a CCX, depending on how it is attached to the fabric that doesn't make it *logically* part of the CCX. It would make it really easy to lay out new 4, 12 or 16 core parts though having them in little cluster. There was mention somewhere that all cores have the same *average* latency to all of the L3 which could mean just about anything.

    It does sound like the L3 cache is in per core strips, they could be disabling every other strip or they could be disabling half of each strip. They probably have the ability to do both.
    It makes me wonder if the R5 with 16MB L3 cache and 4 cores will have the best IPC of all of them??

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    The 6 core sounds interesting to me, but am facing redundancy so toys have to wait
    That sucks,and TBF I am not in any rush to upgrade yet anyway,since £300 to £400 is still a lot of money to spend,and I bought a new PSU,monitor and other bits already in the last year or so.

    At least your FX8350 and R9 380 are still reasonably new,and your monitor has FreeSync.


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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    OrangeKhrush posted more x399 rumours over on the Strictly Technical thread over on AT:
    Yesterday I posted from my source talk of a new platform, today Chiphell leaked the X399 which my source confirmed is real.

    Public knowledge by now but AMD has a new HEDT platform coming out in a couple of months
    You'll see more of it at Computex I believe.
    It's a 16 core /32 Thread, quad channel behemoth. And it is insanely quick in the tests that Ryzen is already excelling at. So Cinebench, and all other related productivity programs. The gaming issues that were causing the Ryzen AM4 CPUs to behave erratically to say the least have been ironed out. It's akin to a newer revision on a newer platform. This should be competing with the Xeon and of course 6950X Intel offers for $1700~$1800USD, but at about $1,000 USD if not less for some Skews. Coming soon.
    CPSs are pretty big physically, about twice the size of surrent 6950X CPUs and a bit more perhaps.
    And if you were hoping for pins, nope it's strictly LGA!
    IT's NOT 8 channel, but Quad.

    Will be a splendid competition between X299 and this AMD platform. Skylake-X is pretty good, not revolutionary but a meaningful step up in IPC and the clocks are pretty high as well. If Intel will have a 32 core part to compete on X299 remains to be seen, but the HEDT platform is going to change quite a bit in the next 4 to 6 months.
    I did confirm that the new silicon rivisions with "ironed" out issues is all the way from these behemoths to the entry level SKU's, I am not really getting my knickers in abunch about this anymore, performance is coming but only if you haven't bought a chip yet.
    Maybe I was too quick to dismiss these X399 rumours. Guess it would have a halo effect, but I though with AMD already stretched thin trying to launch Zen APUs, Naples, Vega etc. they couldn't afford to do so many things at once. Guess maybe between the onboard chipset-type functions and having ASMedia doing some of the work it might not be that much work after all.

  9. #153
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    ... I though with AMD already stretched thin trying to launch Zen APUs, Naples, Vega etc. they couldn't afford to do so many things at once. Guess maybe between the onboard chipset-type functions and having ASMedia doing some of the work it might not be that much work after all.
    Once they've got the dies running through the fabs and they've sorted how to link them together in MCMs (which they've done for Naples) making a 2 die MCM rather than a 4 die MCM isn't really any additional work.

    I've mentioned in relation to Naples that all the talk has been about "128 lanes of IO" rather than 128 lanes of PCIe plus storage and USB, and I've speculated that what the Zepellin die actually has is essentially two clusters of 16 PCIe lanes - one "northbridge" cluster explicitly for high bandwidth PCIe lanes (1x16 or 2x8), plus one "southbridge" cluster that breaks down into a number of smaller ports, and some of which can be used as either PCIe or USB/storage. If I'm right, what AM4 actually provides from the "southbridge" is an x4 PCIe port to the chipset, an x4 PCIe port for storage (x4 NVMe or 2 SATA + x2 PCIe ... in fact this seems very much like 2 SATA Express ports!), and an x4 PCIe port for USB (4x USB 3.0) - which leaves an x4 port unused. But basically, it's all just PCIe.

    Given that we know the x4 PCIe that normally connects to the chipset is available for general purpose on the chipset-less X300/A300 platform, that makes the promontory chipset nothing more than an expansion chip ... I'm pretty sure AMD could stick it on a PCIe x4 card and sell it as an add-in (it'd provide loads of SATA and USB ports)! So there's absolutely no good reason that an X399 board wouldn't just use a rebadged X370 chip, tbh.

    I think my earlier calcs suggested that you'd end up with a minimum 36 and maximum 60 lanes of PCIe from a 2 die MCM plus chipset, depending on how they routed the various PCIe lanes available. But since you can run chipsetless the actual configuration options are extensive...

  10. #154
    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Ughhh, maybe this is the wrong place for a rant, but as a word of caution, I simply can't recommend Gigabyte's motherboards for Ryzen with the current state of their BIOS.

    From day 1 I noticed the BIOS setup was a bit wonky in that response to keyboard input was very sloppy making it frustrating to use. In addition they (like most) misreport temps for the X CPUs. And lastly CPU voltage seems to be misreported in software (I hope) as it's showing as above 2v in some. I think there would be other problems if the voltage were actually that high but still...

    Anyway, after contacting GB I was given a new BIOS to try. Flashed it, kinda fixed temp readings but now Windows BSODs and the BIOS is still frustrating. Meh, not a big deal, just flash back to the old 'stable' version. Right??? Wrong...

    Upon rebooting after the successful reflash, I'm met with a black screen. Reboot, CMOS clear don't help. Now I'm worried! Remembering GB has a recovery BIOS, I hold the power and reset buttons to force a recovery, which works. Only now, that keyboard weirdness has extended to both keyboard and mouse (usually one or the other) and it's also crept into Windows, which now won't boot and recognise both of them.

    I'm really not sure what to do next; I'm just about to give up and return the lot TBH. I can't speak for what reliability is like on other models of motherboard, or other manufacturers.

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    The mouse issue sounds like some pooling or driver init issue.
    Noted that all the Gigabyte board also have a (shared) PS/2 port, so have you tried a PS/2 keyboard?
    Didn't notice any way to tell the chipset USB ports from the CPU ones, but did you try a USB port from a different group?

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    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    There are only 2 USB 2.0 ports on the back panel and 2 on the front, of which I've tried both sets. I use my keyboard through a PS/2 adapter anyway as I find they're usually better for things like getting into BIOS setup, but I also tried it in USB.

    It's hard to pin down exactly what's happening as they both flip between working and not. After a bit more messing about, Windows *seems* OK, but now the mouse is being completely ignored in BIOS. That's not a huge issue but it makes it difficult to change the fan cure which is overly loud at stock settings. I'm also not sure what caused that BSOD, which makes me nervous. It was a CLOCK_WATCHDOG_TIMEOUT according to Windows.

    I've used the GUI BIOS setups (yes, I know UEFI, but BIOS is so much nicer to say!) from ASUS, MSI and ASRock and they're all pretty decent, with MSI probably being my favourite. The Gigabyte one just feels like an afterthought, a tickbox exercise - I'm not sure if that's true of all their menus as this is the only one I've used, but I'm really not impressed. I could live with that if it at least worked properly!

    I know it's anecdotal but my experience of Gigabyte hasn't been good - two boards, both have frustrated the heck out of me. The first, an LGA775 board, had a pretty serious bug in the drivers for the additional SATA controller - every time I went into Computer or accessed a drive plugged in to it, Windows would lock up for a while. That one took me a while to pin down, and I ended up just disabling the controller completely.

    Edit: aaaaaand it's stopped booting again. Even after successfully reflashing again. I'm not sure what's causing it but now the system will only boot a few times after recovering the BIOS, then it just hangs with a black screen, by which I mean no signal so the monitor stays on standby.
    Last edited by watercooled; 17-03-2017 at 01:03 AM.

  13. #157
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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    I've always found Gigabyte motherboards felt like the hardware was excellent but the system was a niggly. Switched back to Asus/Asrock for that reason. Asus have awful customer support, but seem to have a better product. Does anyone get it all right?

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I've always found Gigabyte motherboards felt like the hardware was excellent but the system was a niggly. Switched back to Asus/Asrock for that reason. Asus have awful customer support, but seem to have a better product. Does anyone get it all right?
    No, annoyingly. Both ASRock and Gigabyte have had great support in my experience, Gigabyte seem to perform a touch better, but as you say, a bit niggly.

    Clock watchdog error is a bit worrying - I've only seen that when pushing an overclock too far/voltage too low and stressing my machine. I've seen some mutterings across the web that overclocked ryzen is actually a bit more stable, which suggests they're just a little too aggressive with the power saving by default - gigabyte might well be guilty of the same thing though I don't know how much of a say they get with this SoC design. If wanting to stick with the setup I'd definitely be considering upping volts just a little to stabilise things. Though clearly you've got some wonky bios stuff to sort out first!

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    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    I've never been a fan of Gigabyte, although I've never owned a Gigabyte board - just fiddled with them in friends machines so maybe I'm not giving them a fair crack. I've got an FM2+ MSI based system as my HTPC and I don't like that BIOS or the live update software, but the board itself is very nice. I've long been an Asus fan, although I was tempted to go for an Asrock board this time round but impatience got the better of me.

    This Crosshair VI is complete and utter overkill for my needs but I'm not regretting it, sure there are some bugs but Elmor on overclock.net has been superb with relaying info to the community so far. After just a day or so of fiddling I've got 3.9GHz solid at 1.3v (1.286 - 1.308), I've been trying for 4GHz (using p-state0) but even at 1.4v and a few extra volts here and there on the chipset and it's still not stable. I think I'll wait for future BIOS'es to tinker further, as I type this I notice there's 2 more BIOS'es on overclock.net but I'm not going to be the first to update it.

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      • 2 x Dell 3007
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb Fibre

    Re: AMD - Zen chitchat

    These overclocking numbers are reminding me of the Fury X....no headroom at all. Essentially AMD are selling pre-overclocked parts.....makes me wonder how stable they will be in extreme conditions.
    Main PC: Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 3960X@4.5GHz / Antec H1200 Pro / 32GB DDR3-1866 Quad Channel / Sapphire Fury X / Areca 1680 / 850W EVGA SuperNOVA Gold 2 / Corsair 600T / 2x Dell 3007 / 4 x 250GB SSD + 2 x 80GB SSD / 4 x 1TB HDD (RAID 10) / Windows 10 Pro, Yosemite & Ubuntu
    HTPC: AsRock Z77 Pro 4 / 3770K@4.2GHz / 24GB / GTX 1080 / SST-LC20 / Antec TP-550 / Hisense 65k5510 4K TV / HTC Vive / 2 x 240GB SSD + 12TB HDD Space / Race Seat / Logitech G29 / Win 10 Pro
    HTPC2: Asus AM1I-A / 5150 / 4GB / Corsair Force 3 240GB / Silverstone SST-ML05B + ST30SF / Samsung UE60H6200 TV / Windows 10 Pro
    Spare/Loaner: Gigabyte EX58-UD5 / i950 / 12GB / HD7870 / Corsair 300R / Silverpower 700W modular
    NAS 1: HP N40L / 12GB ECC RAM / 2 x 3TB Arrays || NAS 2: Dell PowerEdge T110 II / 24GB ECC RAM / 2 x 3TB Hybrid arrays || Network:Buffalo WZR-1166DHP w/DD-WRT + HP ProCurve 1800-24G
    Laptop: Lenovo Flex 2 / 12GB RAM / 240GB Corsair Force 3 Printer: HP CP1515n || Phone: HTC One U11 || Other: Samsung Galaxy Tab 4 Pro 10.1 CM12.1 / Playstation 4 + G29 + 2TB Hybrid drive

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