Bloody students

[Byatt]

In principle, I see nothing wrong with students paying a contribution towards the cost of their further education. After all, students will, by and large, be the ones to benefit from that education.

Students already pay for their degrees through taxation when they go into work and start earning higher salaries by being placed in a higher tax bracket. Never mind the fact that they've worked unpaid for three or more years for their degree, where they could have taken a job after A-level and earned a big bag of cash and a ton of work experience.

One of the unhealthy bi-products of this argument, which I find a little insulting is that it suggests that it is THE DEGREE that makes a person employable at a higher wage rate, rather than the qualities that person has (albeit in part due to their degree). If jobs (and hence, salaries) were merely based upon what degree you had and at what level, why do we bother with job interviews?

Yes, fine, employers advertise for "graduates" ...but what would happen if all the non-vocational course students suddenly decided they wouldn't go to university? A three month course in research qualities and they're just as employable, to the open minded business person. It's hardly the blame of students in general if graduate recruitment is so short sighted, is it?

I feel it is slightly unfair to place whatever percentage of funding universities do not receive from the government on students when to me it seems we are already paying, and we will pay more in the future, especially when noticing the similarities between the amount of money universities "need" and the amount of money spent on the war in Iraq, but that's another issue.

Cat Woman: The fees are retroactive, i.e. You will still have to pay for your time at Uni EVEN if you have already left.

This isn't entirely true, students currently graduating have no fear of top-up fees being added to their debts. The only students who will pay top-up fees (I think) will be those starting degree courses from 2006 onwards (if the bill gets through)

[Slick]

At the end of the day I think education should be free because it benefits the economy etc. (well atleast for most couses it does). I've been a student since september and am allready £500 overdrawn, the debt does mount up but it doesn't worry me too much. In my experience the people who hate students only hate them because they couldn't get into uni themselves or just because they're old and bitter

I don't know where the stereotypical image of getting up mid afternoon then drinking non stop comes from but there is a lot of hard work involved which is why so many people drop out.

[Cat Woman]

I don't know where the stereotypical image of getting up mid afternoon then drinking non stop comes from but there is a lot of hard work involved which is why so many people drop out.

Good point. If you don't get good enough results in your first year, they probably wont let you continue. So its not like u can stay in and drink all day because you just wont pass.
Anyway, what real difference is there between working people age 18-21 than students 18-21. Are non students supposed to be much more well behaved?

[mattpc]

What's up? Were u too stupid to go to uni or something?

3K is a lot of money and I'm sure when u were 18 years old people didn't pay any tuition fees and were given grants not LOANS to pay for living expenses. Would u like to see only rich kids going to uni is that it?

All they ever bloody do is winge winge winge, moan moan moan. Well now it's my turn to have a moan

Why are they so adverse to paying £3k for a course? "The debt is too much... we'll be paying it off until we're 80!"

Absolute bollocks. By the time they've finished the course and got a job (!) they'll have a decent enough starting salary to pay the bloody loan off within a year easily! I borrowed 11k last year, and I'm paying it off easily NOW earning far less than I'd be earning in 3 yrs time with a degree! Honestly, wtf is there to complain about?!?!

Always after a free lunch, that's the trouble. Too busy squandering their money on dope and partys. Irrisponsible, short-sighted fools sucking the blood and money from this country.

I feel better for that

[Shad]

What's up? Were u too stupid to go to uni or something?

3K is a lot of money and I'm sure when u were 18 years old people didn't pay any tuition fees and were given grants not LOANS to pay for living expenses. Would u like to see only rich kids going to uni is that it?

I was 18 until just over a month ago...

I chose not to go to university because I was offered a full time job in the career I wanted to pursue. My gripe is people complaining about the inevitable; a cost involved in furthering themselves.

[Cat Woman]

There's already a large enough cost!!!! They've just made it even bigger!!
Some of us don't get jobs offered to us on a plate, we have to go that extra mile, take risks and hope we might get our dream job. If we don't, I doubt anyone will still feel that university is a waste of time.

[floppybootstomp]

In my experience the people who hate students only hate them because they couldn't get into uni themselves or just because they're old and bitter

hey, just to defend myself here, I didn't get into Uni (I didn't want to) and I'm not young. nor am I bitter

but I'm not stereotypical

If you read my comments in this thread I would support the way things were - if you have the ability, then University courses should be for 'free', paid for by the state.

a student will still have to find the cash from somewhere just to live for three years or so

would agree that degrees in fairly useless subjects for entry into the real job world, kinda dilute the job market, but that's life

how's about being an apprentice electrician for a few years, getting qualified then going self-employed?

the work ain't hard and you'll earn a fortune, Sparks are in short supply and earn at least £200 - £250.00 a day around here, which ain't too shabby

and to a lesser degree, that's true of chippies and plumbers as well

and no, that's not what I do for a living

[tiggerai]

I think for a 19 year old in a full time job, you are VERY naive, and in some respects, losing out. So what if you have the money... you're missing out on one of the best experiences you'll ever have a chance of having. (Ask any student if their time at uni is the time of their lives or not... i bet 99% say it is.) Personally it's going to be worth the £13k i'm going to be in debt.
How can you even comment on things that you have NO experience in? So you got lucky this time. Big deal, well done.

I bet you're still living with your parents too, so whats that if it's not sponging off them?
When you're paying rent, bills, petrol and all the other stuff that comes with living away from home, then I might give you some respect.

I detest people who think they are all grown up just coz they have a lucky break. Yes you are entitled to an opinion, but to sweepingly generalise all us students who work their little bottoms off for a career is just not nice.

Grow Up Shad. And woe betide you if you ever cross my path.

[Shad]

I think for a 19 year old in a full time job, you are VERY naive, and in some respects, losing out. So what if you have the money... you're missing out on one of the best experiences you'll ever have a chance of having. (Ask any student if their time at uni is the time of their lives or not... i bet 99% say it is.) Personally it's going to be worth the £13k i'm going to be in debt.
How can you even comment on things that you have NO experience in? So you got lucky this time. Big deal, well done.

Thanks 13 grand for an 'experience' sounds like an expensive holiday to me, but as you've correctly spotted I don't have any university experience so this is just my opinion.

I bet you're still living with your parents too, so whats that if it's not sponging off them?
When you're paying rent, bills, petrol and all the other stuff that comes with living away from home, then I might give you some respect.

How is me sponging off my parents any different to you sponging off the state? In any case, I may as well be living away from home with the amount of rent I pay. And then there's the cost of commuting, bills, tax, socialising... let's call it 'living' shall we; it's a cost that will always be there, just like education fees.

I detest people who think they are all grown up just coz they have a lucky break. Yes you are entitled to an opinion, but to sweepingly generalise all us students who work their little bottoms off for a career is just not nice.

Grow Up Shad. And woe betide you if you ever cross my path.

It's called freedom of speech, and I'm not worried about speaking my mind. If I thought students were comparable to immigrants, I'd say so. But of course I am currently neither a student or an immigrant, so I couldn't possibly speculate

Thanks for your comments.

[Lee]

It's called freedom of speech

And a general stereotypical uninformed piece of speech it was.

[dgr]

To hell with a 50% target. Refocus Universities on ACADEMIC subjects, increase attention and encouragement to vocational courses, and correct the balance.

EXACTLY MY BELIEF!

however much tony blair thinks he can revolutionise society, we WILL need cleaners, roadsweepers, dustmen, etc

Perhaps even more than usual - think about it this way - if the population is getting cleverer, does it make economic sense for me to clean my house? DAMN RIGHT IT DOESN'T - pay someone without the skills to do an academic job whilst i can spend my time productively!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to a good university. i can pay my way, and i probably could with these top up fees. but i know may a family with 3 kids, who earn say £45k a year - clearly enough to have to pay for the top up fees, but thus meaning they will be stuck for £33 THOUSAND POUNDS!

Screw the 50%, as far as i see it, if ya ain't workin, and ya ain't learning, then sort it out!

dgr

[dgr]

If I thought students were comparable to immigrants, I'd say so. But of course I am currently neither a student or an immigrant, so I couldn't possibly speculate

I am a student and i am an immigrant, (well a second generation immigrant)

and i kinda find your generalisations of "immigrants" as offensive. Many immigrants work dman hard, how many indians own corner shops? why do they? because they don't work hard? hardly.

dgr

[Lee]

You make a good point dgr. The 50% target really is stupid. That's the trouble with Labour - it's targets, targets, targets with them.

What uni are you going to dgr?

[dgr]

You make a good point dgr. The 50% target really is stupid. That's the trouble with Labour - it's targets, targets, targets with them.

What uni are you going to dgr?

cambridge, studying CS (moving to physics in second year).

I try not to get into verbal debates about uni top up fees etc, as people can very quickly mane an oppinion that i am being right wing / cheapskate. i'm not, i genuinely believe that anyone smart enough to go to uni should. but i know of people at unis (which may remain nameless) who have done a few essays over an entire TERM. if thats the course you are doing, the country should not have to pay for it. However if you're doing a course that will stimulate your mind, then you are the future and you should be helped to go as far as possible.

incidently i am not a tory, more of a floating votor (though at the moment theres not really anywhere to float).

dgr

[Byatt]

cambridge, studying CS (moving to physics in second year).

I try not to get into verbal debates about uni top up fees etc, as people can very quickly mane an oppinion that i am being right wing / cheapskate. i'm not, i genuinely believe that anyone smart enough to go to uni should. but i know of people at unis (which may remain nameless) who have done a few essays over an entire TERM. if thats the course you are doing, the country should not have to pay for it. However if you're doing a course that will stimulate your mind, then you are the future and you should be helped to go as far as possible.

incidently i am not a tory, more of a floating votor (though at the moment theres not really anywhere to float).

dgr

at what point do you define the cutoff then? Right, you, you're only on 4 essays per term, start paying, now! What about an essay a week? What about an essay a fortnight, with the added proviso that the text the essay is based on is greek, and requires translation first? As for stimulation of mind - there's no real argument that studying the arts is any less stimulating than having relativistic mechanics explained to you, in my opinion.

I agree that it's hardly fair for students on loafing courses to have their way paid for them, just saying that it's very difficult to legislate against that happening, and I feel that, as a bi-product of paying everyone's fees and making education free we get a few of these loafers in the system, that's not too horrible a price to pay. Life would be terribly dull if we were all the same.

[Angus]

Degree courses should be accredited to a professional body - that way the degree should mean something and the professional body would be a link between uni and the real world.

I know a lot of degrees are already accredited, but if say the top x universities were given more cash for the better students.

If the degree course isn't accredited by a professional body it would either mean your uni isn't good enough or your degree isn't a useful degree.