Madness? This is London!

[usxhe190]

Unfortunately for him, some guy in the MET said he matched Osman and another high level guy issued code red on him and the plain clothed officers just followed orders.

That's it - he is dead.

[ikonia]

nichomach, thats fantasticly conflicting view point based on conflicting information, I'd genuinly appriciate hearing more about this (I'm not massivly interested in this actual case but how the facts are distorted is very much of interest).

Perhaps a seperate thread to not take this one off track is in order on how the relased information on this is wrong or maybe a pm to me with where you got the information from. I've not followed the case in detail just as a passing interest really, and used the situation to highlight how hard a job the police have and how they have to act on inteligence so I'm certainly not saying that I'm at all right in what I've read, hence my interest to understand more.

[arbitor]

Or just exhange phone numbers, would be easier.

[nichomach]

Look, we had a massive thread on this; but start with the discrepancies noted by the IPCC - BBC NEWS | UK | Menezes case discrepancies shown

The fact that Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman deliberately misled the public - BBC NEWS | UK | Anti-terror chief 'misled' public

The fact that even the IPCC report has been edited to remove criticism of the officers involved, and that the people who were responsible for the truth emerging have been subjected to a witch-hunt - Comment is free: Getting away with murder

Actually, the Guardian's coverage has been pretty good, so you might have a look at Menezes archive | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

The officers who pulled the trigger may have believed they were doing the right thing, but their decision was based upon a catalogue of incompetence, which the Met 's senior officers lied to cover up. Hell, the coroner even had to change his report on the death because he realised the Met had lied to him.

[ikonia]

looks like that will be a lot of interesting reading,

thank you.

[JPreston]

If there is a high percentage of black males on the database, there is a high percentage of black males being arrested for crimes or suspicion of crime(s).

Yes, and that's exactly what I said above - that records on the DNA database are a reflection of arrest patterns - so well done on apparently learning something new today. However, your inference that this correspends to conviction rates is still baseless.

Would you like to learn another fact? Of people arrested in London who had DNA samples added to the database as a result but then released without charge, 57% were black. Despite black people being a minority of the population, the majority of innocent people arrested are black. Is that interesting? Indicative of bias in arrest patterns, perhaps resulting either from legislative imbalance or prejudice of police officers? I suppose from your desk in Bizarro-world you would argue instead that the CPS is institutionally biased against white people, and so doggedly pursues cases against them while simultaneously turning a blind eye to open-and-shut cases where the accused is black.....?

Yet another fact. You say there is no racism in the UK (more later), but you will presumably agree that the US does indeed have problems with racism, segregation, discrimination, and so on. The US would not seem to be a very equitable country at all, in many respects and particularly with regards to race and crime levels among african americans which would seem to be significantly higher even than crime in black communities in the UK. Agreed?

OK. The US has it's own DNA database very similar to ours. But, if the US were to store as high a proportion of its black males on its database as we in the UK do, the database would have to grow to to three times its current size to hold them all even if it were to exclusively hold black males leaving no room at all for anyone else. That's how far out of proportion the UK database is. Interesting?

I myself was arrested for "assault with a deadly weapon" I was alledged to have hit someone with a bottle.....I had confronted the person in question, and threatened him. There were witnesses who saw that....

Oh, I'm sure you are very intimidating.

As a person who has landed himself on the DNA database, have you ever taken a moment to think what this actually means?

For example, should you undergo an extended background check on applying for a job it will show your prospective employer that your DNA is held on the register, and not give a reason why. As well as the electronic record itself, the physical sample itself is stored by the private company that analysed it and will continue to be held at least until your 100th birthday (regardless of when you die), providing complete genetic information on you.

It has already been made available to private companies for the purpose of genetic research without your consent, including one project to ascertain a person's ethnicity from their DNA (surprisingly, this is not already possible). Perhaps if Alex Barry's lot ever get in other projects will scan for genes indicative of potential alcoholism, homosexuality, short-sightedness, criminality or any other 'undesirable' traits that regimes in the 20th century have executed people for. It is available for access by the US govt, and soon, any govt authority anywhere within the EU. And will continue to be available for whatever purpose seems like a good idea to whoever is in power at the time, in all these places, right up to your 100th birthday.

I shouldn't imagine any of that troubles you though. After all, you've got nothing to hide - and hopefully none of your family do either as familial matching is already being used to implicate people who aren't even on the database yet. I'm going to start a separate thread on the DNA database soon though, feel free not to contribute to or read it. Seriously

I'm curious about one thing though. You are still maintaining that racism does not exist in the UK, with the exception of a few nutcases. I interpret this to mean that as long as a black person manages to avoid being murdered with an axe like Anthony Walker, he will enjoy exactly the same educational, employment, healthcare, financial etc opportunities as absolutely anyone else. But, you also say that 45% are convicted criminals (I'm sure a percentage not pulled directly out of your bum would not be that high, but it would indeed be disproportionately high), and you will admit that in reality on average they suffer from higher unemployment, lower wages, underachieve in education, and so on. Why do you think this is then?

[Bazzlad]

Yes, and that's exactly what I said above - that records on the DNA database are a reflection of arrest patterns - so well done on apparently learning something new today. However, your inference that this correspends to conviction rates is still baseless.

No you're right. The CPS is useless.
Still, you don't get arrested for nothing. There is always reasonable doubt. I'm shocked you doubt this. The way you rant, you'd think the police love paperwork.

Would you like to learn another fact? Of people arrested in London who had DNA samples added to the database as a result but then released without charge, 57% were black. Despite black people being a minority of the population, the majority of innocent people arrested are black. Is that interesting?

No not really.

A report by Britain's Home Office for the years 2003, 2004, and 2005 stated that of the "ethnic appearance" of persons arrested for "notable offenses", 84.3% were White, 8.8% were Black, 4.9% were Asian, and 1.4% were Other, with the remaining percentage classified as "Unknown".

So in Britain (on the whole) the amount of black people arrested sits nicely with the percentage of black people in the country.

London however, is a different ball game.
Old data mind, but can't find anything more recent.

In 1983, a commotion erupted in Britain when the London Metropolitan Police issued figures showing that twice as many street crimes were committed by Blacks as by Whites in that city.
The statistics showed that, of 19,528 London victims of robbery and other street crimes, 10,960 identified their assailants as Black. Of the rest, 5,262 of the offenses were blamed on Whites and 534 on mixed-race criminals. (Sunday Times, 27 March 1983).

Also - more recent data:
26.2% of people in London on a court supervision order are black.

In 2003 -2005 the amount of black people murdered was 293.
186 were from London. The next highest? 34 (West Mids).

Of the 118,734 black people arrested in 2004/5 (1,137,000 white people were)
60,518 were in London - 102,763 (white people).


Now I hope these statistics prove something. Despite being a minority, black people in London commit a LOT of crimes, so it's no surprise so many are arrested and subsequently released.

% of crimes committed by race

London
White - 54.7 Black - 32.2

Manchester
White - 86.3 Black - 6.3

See what I mean?

Yet another fact. You say there is no racism in the UK (more later), but you will presumably agree that the US does indeed have problems with racism, segregation, discrimination, and so on. The US would not seem to be a very equitable country at all, in many respects and particularly with regards to race and crime levels among african americans which would seem to be significantly higher even than crime in black communities in the UK. Agreed?

OK. The US has it's own DNA database very similar to ours. But, if the US were to store as high a proportion of its black males on its database as we in the UK do, the database would have to grow to to three times its current size to hold them all even if it were to exclusively hold black males leaving no room at all for anyone else. That's how far out of proportion the UK database is. Interesting?

Yes. Very interesting. But then, there are a LOT more black people in the USA, so that isn't too much of a surprise.

I still don't think we are a racist country. I'm not saying there isn't any, but as proven earlier, more black people commit racist crimes than white people - that, in my opinion, proves how far we've come and that we are still heading in the right direction, like you said, unlike the segregated US. And it is segregated and it is sad.

Oh, I'm sure you are very intimidating.

And I'm sure you're a bright, intelligent, attractive person.

As a person who has landed himself on the DNA database, have you ever taken a moment to think what this actually means?

Didn't have much of a choice really did I? But it's ok, I'm in good company.

For example, should you undergo an extended background check on applying for a job it will show your prospective employer that your DNA is held on the register, and not give a reason why. As well as the electronic record itself, the physical sample itself is stored by the private company that analysed it and will continue to be held at least until your 100th birthday (regardless of when you die), providing complete genetic information on you.

Did you know that the Government holds all sort of information about you even after you die. All sorts of crazy things like your DOB, RACE, NAME. Can you image what they could do with this?

It has already been made available to private companies for the purpose of genetic research without your consent, including one project to ascertain a person's ethnicity from their DNA (surprisingly, this is not already possible).

Well, that IS interesting. I'd have thought they could tell that, but as a donor card holder I'm all for research - I think you should have to carry an ANTI donor card to opt out, but that's another story.

Perhaps if Alex Barry's lot ever get in other projects will scan for genes indicative of potential alcoholism, homosexuality, short-sightedness, criminality or any other 'undesirable' traits that regimes in the 20th century have executed people for.

Perhaps if Hitler were alive he'd analyze my DNA and create a zombie with it.
What the hell is the point of the above sentence? Really?

It is available for access by the US govt, and soon, any govt authority anywhere within the EU. And will continue to be available for whatever purpose seems like a good idea to whoever is in power at the time, in all these places, right up to your 100th birthday.

They already have my fingerprints, photographs, and all my information from my marriage. They may as well have my DNA. I'd give it freely (and may well have to when I move there).

I shouldn't imagine any of that troubles you though. After all, you've got nothing to hide - and hopefully none of your family do either as familial matching is already being used to implicate people who aren't even on the database yet. I'm going to start a separate thread on the DNA database soon though, feel free not to contribute to or read it. Seriously

I'd love to not read anything you've written. Feel free to not invite me. Seriously
If someone in my family committed a crime and was caught via my DNA, I'd say my DNA had done the world a service, wouldn't you?

I'm curious about one thing though. You are still maintaining that racism does not exist in the UK, with the exception of a few nutcases. I interpret this to mean that as long as a black person manages to avoid being murdered with an axe like Anthony Walker, he will enjoy exactly the same educational, employment, healthcare, financial etc opportunities as absolutely anyone else. But, you also say that 45% are convicted criminals (I'm sure a percentage not pulled directly out of your bum would not be that high, but it would indeed be disproportionately high), and you will admit that in reality on average they suffer from higher unemployment, lower wages, underachieve in education, and so on. Why do you think this is then?

For the same reason AIDS is rife in Africa. The usual suspects, Lifestyle choice, lack of education, poverty. All of which can be addressed with the right system, a little bit of carrot and a little bit of stick.

[TimeRider]

Don't like it? Think PC causes more problems and segregates everyone?

There is a petition you can sign (and pass on the url of course)

petitions.pm.gov.uk/correct
.
Thanks
Steve!
timerider.co.uk

[DWhitley]

Yes!

Just like in America!

And they slaughter each other with them!

It's a big place so be careful about generalisations. They have some of the quietest, safest neighbourhoods I know.