Thoughts on living in an apartment?

[Parm]

Sounds a bit of a strange question, but my partner and I are looking to buy our first place together! Yay, happy happy joy joy and all that...

Anyhow, we were originally looking at houses and we'd found a nice one that we liked. Trouble is, it's pretty pricey and we're now wondering if it's worth us spending a lot on our first place, or, if we should get started with something a little smaller.

We've therefore started to look at apartments, and we've seen a few that look quite appealing. They're actually very nice! I'm not accustomed to apartments, but I can see pros and cons. Pros: added security with other people around, low-cost, possibility of renting it out later. Cons: noise with other people around, smaller, parking!

So, who lives or has lived in an apartment? Any general thoughts? I realise that it'll depend largely on the apartment itself, and who happens to be living next door. But do how do you find them? Are they noisey? I live with family in a village at the mo, and it's super quiet so I'm not keen on noise - particularly at night!

It's a minefield when you're shopping for your first place. I'll take any tips I can get.

[staffsMike]

What sort of houses are you looking at? Obviously you have to take a dive on quality compared to appartments but if it's in a nice area I'd be tempted (and I know the little lady would prefer it) by that.

You've highlighted the hit and miss nature of appartments. So if you are going to go forward with the appartment thing deffinatly be nosey and knock on the doors around you, ask what it's like etc.. before making a comitment to one.

[Disturbedguy]

Tbh this is something I've been looking at.

I finish University soon (next week I think), then am looking for a proper job, I have already decided that once I get a job and have some money behind me I want me and my gf (whom ive been with for 3 years) to get our own place, preferably an apartment.

Ive visited a mate in his apartment and it is quite big, it has an open plan kitchen, dining/ living room area, he has two medium couches, tv and coffee table, then a dinner table and still plenty of room to spare.

His bedroom is on a raised section, overlooking the kitchen, that bedroom has an en-suite bathroom, he then has a bathroom downstairs and a second smaller room.

All in all it is a very nice and quite large place.

[Steve B]

is an apartment the same as a flat?

[MadduckUK]

is an apartment the same as a flat?

no, it has far more fancy stuff potential

[Rave]

Parm, do you ever watch or read the news? I can only assume not, because you seem to be completely unaware of the fact that we're at the start of a massive property price crash. If you buy a house or flat now you are guaranteed to lose money.

In fact, if you have a deposit of less than £20k to put down on a place, I'd suggest that you'd be better off withdrawing it all from the bank, putting it in a field, and setting fire to it- because if you buy right now with a deposit of £20k you'll like as not be in negative equity within a couple of years. Unless, I suppose, the flat you're buying costs less than £40k, and even then you'd be marginal.

I've not warned anybody on these forums against buying property for the best part of a year- why bother, when the papers are full of doom and gloom? Nobody thanks you for saying "I told you so". To buy property right now would be absolute lunacy. I really cannot emphasise this strongly enough. If you want to move in with your girlfriend then for goodness sake rent a place. Quite apart from the fact that buying would be financial suicide, living with someone is quite different from going out with them, and lots of couples find that living together doesn't work out. That's upsetting enough without having to go through the hassle of selling a place you jointly own.

I would link you to a few stories of housing related woe, but you'd be much better off clicking on the link to www.housepricecrash.co.uk in my sig and starting from there. There's always an entertaining selection of news stories linked up from the front page, and the forums are well worth a go.

Edit: just gone there, here's a very pertinent link to get you started: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...cnhouse119.xml

[TooNice]

Other's experience may vary, but I don't think that noise is a huge issue, especially if you stay away from student flats (and those are amazingly quiet during breaks). Sure you may end up with neighbours from hell, as you could in most places, but I think those are more of an exception than the norm. Size wise will depend on the apartment and how much you are willing to spend and you can always check if the location has allocated parking space.

[Saracen]

I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with Rave. Largely, anyway.

I'm not convinced they'll be a massive price crash, though it depends on how you define "massive". I've said for two or three years that I thought prices couldn't continue to rise, that I expected things to slow down, perhaps stagnate and perhaps even drop to some extent. But that I didn't expect a huge price crash (of the order of the last one, which was about 50% where I was) unless some major external factor triggered it. Well, though I didn't see it coming, that external factor may prove to be the US credit crunch and securitisation problems, and the oil price hike just .... as it were .... adds petrol to the fire.

I now think a fairly significant price drop is very likely, and probably certain. There's already been some of it. I also think a 1990-style crash is more likely than it was, but still not probable.

But, the upshot of all that is that, were it me and I had the opportunity to and could stomach staying with family for another year or so, I'd hold off on buying right now. Keep an eye on things, and be ready to act as and when it looks like we're coming out of the doldrums, but I wouldn't buy right now. In fact, I'm more inclined to sell and hop off the ladder for a year or two.

Either way, it's a gamble (given the costs involved) but it's looking increasing like a good bet to get off the property ladder, not on it. I'd suggest thinking carefully, Parm.

[Nick]

I agree with Rave 100% buying now is not a good idea... The market is slowing as everybody cacks themselves and prices will drop.

I'm not so sure there's going to be quite the cataclysmic crash that Rave has been predicting for a while, but there is most certainly going to be a fairly large drop.

You're far better off either staying put where you are or going for rental... and keep a close eye on property values... as soon as you see an upturn in prices over a 3 month period, start looking at buying... I bet you get yerself a bargain.

The only problem with renting is that the rental market is booming... there's a fair few people have sold up and moved into rented to preserve their equity, so demand for rents and therefore rates themselves, are high.

So unless you're desperate to move in together, I'd either be patient and wait or seriously hunt around for a rental bargain... but definitely don't buy this side of Christmas unless there's a major swing one way or the other in the property market.

[Rave]

Sorry, I know I should just thank Saracen and Nick for their cautious agreement with me, but I just can't let it go.

But that I didn't expect a huge price crash (of the order of the last one, which was about 50% where I was)

I've always expected this crash to be more serious than the last one, simply because the bubble preceeding it was larger. Prices have always dropped (in inflation adjusted terms) to close to the previous low in every single previous bubble/crash, and I saw, and still see, no reason to bet against the experience of hundreds of years of history. IMO, it's never 'different this time'.

unless some major external factor triggered it. Well, though I didn't see it coming, that external factor may prove to be the US credit crunch and securitisation problems,

The HousePriceCrash regulars certainly saw the credit crunch coming at least two years ago (probably three if I could be bothered to trawl their forum search function, which I can't). In any case the US credit crunch is pretty irrelevant to the U.K. housing market; the market isn't tanking because we're the unlucky victims of global economic circumstances, it's crashing because it got blown up to completely unrealistic levels through irrational exuberance. This is a problem of our own (national) making and to blame anybody else is daft.

and the oil price hike just .... as it were .... adds petrol to the fire.

The commodities bubble is a symptom of the various Central Banks' idiotic response to the credit crunch. They've panicked and flooded the market with liquidity because they're scared to death of the effects of a house price crash- but the banks and big investors aren't stupid, they know the housing market is toast whatever happens. So all that new liquidity from the central banks has gone into creating a commodities bubble instead. Now we have a crashing housing market AND a rampant inflation problem because of all the money that's been dropped in in a vain firefighting attempt. Great.

But, the upshot of all that is that, were it me and I had the opportunity to and could stomach staying with family for another year or so, I'd hold off on buying right now.

I say again, if Parm wants to move in with his partner then they should rent a place. I don't really believe that rents are rising significantly, and living with your partner is, in the main, much nicer than living with your family. It certainly is cheapest to stay at home, but renting still isn't expensive for a couple where both partners have a reasonably well paid full time job. My wife and I could probably save about £15-20k a year towards buying a house if we moved back in with my mum for a bit- we could probably buy a modest place for cash outright in 5-6 years if the crash goes as I expect it to- but we're not going to that. Life's too short.

You're far better off either staying put where you are or going for rental... and keep a close eye on property values... as soon as you see an upturn in prices over a 3 month period, start looking at buying... I bet you get yerself a bargain.

I really wouldn't even consider buying in the next three years. I fully expect the crash to take at least six or seven years, like it did last time- although it is possible that prices will simply crash faster this time round. Three months of rises does not a trend make- it could easily be a sucker's rally. I believe their were a few short periods of growth around 1992-1994 that soon faltered when people realised that nothing had really changed, whereafter prices continued to fall again right through to 1996.

[Saracen]

I've always expected this crash to be more serious than the last one, simply because the bubble preceeding it was larger. Prices have always dropped (in inflation adjusted terms) to close to the previous low in every single previous bubble/crash, and I saw, and still see, no reason to bet against the experience of hundreds of years of history. IMO, it's never 'different this time'.

It's never the same as last time either, especially when the economic background is vastly different. And, so far as housing in the UK is concerned, this is really only the second crash, if it happens, because it's only been about the last 20 years that we've had a housing market that involved anything like the scale of private ownership that we have now.

The HousePriceCrash regulars certainly saw the credit crunch coming at least two years ago (probably three if I could be bothered to trawl their forum search function, which I can't). In any case the US credit crunch is pretty irrelevant to the U.K. housing market; the market isn't tanking because we're the unlucky victims of global economic circumstances, it's crashing because it got blown up to completely unrealistic levels through irrational exuberance. This is a problem of our own (national) making and to blame anybody else is daft.

I didn't say I didn't see a credit crunch coming. I said I didn't see the US credit crunch and the securitisation issues coming, as an issue for this country. But the US credit crunch is far from irrelevant to this country. A fair bit of the problems are directly imported, because the securitisation of products has meant that many banks, all over the developed world, bought these products and as a result, all got stung with concern of over the sub-prime issues and trying to work out exactly what the products they'd been buying and selling from each other were really worth. That's what caused the concerns over credit to start, and the LIBOR rate to go up. It wasn't that banks didn't have nay money - it was that nobody would risk lending it.

A UK credit crunch has been on the cards for years. One look at levels of consumer debt tells us that it has to come home to roost sooner or later. But the nature of the US problems triggering it over here was a surprise, at least to me. And, for clarity, I'm not saying I'm surprised that the problems came from the US, but that the nature of them surprised me.

And yes, prices have gone to silly levels, and it's been a self-fuelling fantasy, though that self-fuelling delusion has been positively encouraged by the government, since they made fortunes from it. But it was, and still is, in everybody's (except those not on the property ladder and wanting to get on it) to avoid a crash, and if prices have to 'adjust' (and in ny view, they do) that it should be controlled, not a crash. Rather than bursting a bubble, it is in most people's interests to let air put of the balloon. We need to deflate the market, not burst the bubble.

Of course, whether the ballon gets deflated or the bubble bursts remains to be seen. I still think the balloon is more likely than the bubble, and certainly more desirable, but the bubble is more likely than it was a year ago.

I really wouldn't even consider buying in the next three years. I fully expect the crash to take at least six or seven years, like it did last time- although it is possible that prices will simply crash faster this time round. Three months of rises does not a trend make- it could easily be a sucker's rally. I believe their were a few short periods of growth around 1992-1994 that soon faltered when people realised that nothing had really changed, whereafter prices continued to fall again right through to 1996.

Maybe so. It depends, at least in part, on whether we have a slowdown or a recession. It depends on what else happens to dent confidence, and if nothing else does, how far and fast it recovers.

I can't see much improving for 12 to 18 months, and it may be that you're right and it'll take a lot longer. I just can't see it conceivably being any less. Therefore, in my opinion, from 12 to 18 months time, keep your eyes open for signs of change. It is very likely that, sooner or later, prices will start to recover. Ideally, anyone playing timing games wants to be well underway, if not finished, with the purchasing just that happens. The age old rule of playing timing games with the market - sell before it peaks and buy before it bottoms out.

[rufeo]

i'm living in an apartment atm. although parking can be a problem with some apartments, others don't. the place i'm living in right now has off street parking with a parking space allocated to each flat. depending on the apartments, noise can be a problem or not. in my place the walls aren't too thin, i mean if you turn up the bass on music/movies then neighbours will hear it. but on the whole its not too bad. have a friend who recently moved into a newly built block of apartments, he also has off street parking. but the big plus is that the apartments are sound proofed. he demonstrated by turning up his music insanely loud and we all said that won't he neighbours come round. he was really unconcerned and said that the sound proofing was very good, since he turns up the volume quite often.

size is a problem, you normally get a large roomm with en-suite and then i tiny room in a 2 bed flat. penthouse suites normally have nicely sized rooms but ost alot more. pricing also increases with higher floors. its a bit cheaper than housing but you've got to take into account of maintenance fees that all the flats pay i.e. cleaning of the hallways, billing for the lights in the halls and elevators.

i think for young people its a nice way of living before they have money to buy a house, as apartments nowadays are normally in quite good locations with similar ppl living around you

[TheAnimus]

Ok compliment sandwich time.

I agree with rave on this point.

But he's been so very wrong for such a long time he has LOST money, its no good saying the sky's going to fall in for 3 years, only when it does to say "see i told you so". I've owned my flat a year, its gone up a lot in that time period, enough to insulate me from the 9% drop HBOS where talking about yesterday. The problem is rave will jump up and down saying see i told you so, not realising that overall he is in a net wrong whilst having what could be seen as a gross right.

The problem is now its very un-certain, unless you've got a BIG deposit your going to find mortgage costs are a lot higher. That said rents have soured lately, the identical flat to mine is now renting for &#163;40 a week more. Thats 15% in <6 months (even more shocking as its from a short lease to a long one, long ones are normally cheaper!).

If you can afford your payments, and can afford them if interest rates jump, and your not buying it for an investment, but a place to live then now can be a good time to buy because you can put in very cheaky offers blaiming the current climate.


Now as for the original question, i own and live in a flat (sorry but appartment sounds like its a studio flat and your trying to make it sound better). Its a two bed, two bath, kitchen and living room flat. 80 square meters, its in a block of 7 flats (one penthouse, two 'garden' (using the word garden VERY loosly)).

Our flat is one of the garden flats, so theres only 1 other like it. The block is private and we've a 1/7th share of Freehold and the management company.

I WOULD NEVER BUY A PLACE PURELY ON LEASEHOLD. Just my 2 cents, i know people who've been bent over backwards and rogered by the freehold company with massive survice charges.

Also i wouldn't buy in a large developement, the problem is you need only 1 resident to make the whole block nasty, also the more flats there are the more supply there is thats identical to yours, so the lower your price if people start selling at once.

[Lee H]

A few of my mates live in appartments and some of them are not something I would actually live in after being used to the terrace for a few years.

The noise coming through some the walls is terrible and if they're actually making a bit of noise either by having a party or bedroom activities then the noise just drifts through.

If your looking at a 'posh flat' then I would check the noise pollution prevention steps taken as I fear some companies have cut corners when erecting these.

[TheAnimus]

Lee makes a good point, the studio i rented before had paper thin walls, and the guy next to me worked nights. He was a total ass too. Nearly ended up with some war of attrition!

If your looking a good purpose built place the noise insulation should be good (worth checking thou, ask the neighbours!) in my current place the only real noise we have is from when the windows are open.

[kalniel]

Ignoring the issue of whether it's wise to buy right now or not, anyone mind if I answer Parm's question?

I lived in a flat for a couple of years. It was a nice modern one and very nice to live in. Bills were dead low compared to a house, the added security was nice, and if you wanted it there was quite a nice sense of community (even if a lot of the residents actually only seemed to use their flats as a second home during the week). Parking was fine for myself, but guests visiting during the week was a bit of a problem sometimes - weekends were fine as again a lot of people went to their proper homes so the guest parking spots freed up.

Noise was never a problem for me - but again that could have been due to the kind of people living there. Living in a house now is actually noisier just because people do play music nearby etc.

Space is probably the biggest concern, depending on how well you get on with your partner - sometimes you might want some distance or a garden to potter in.

All in all, disregarding the investment side of things, I think flats are a good first home for a couple - they're cheap to live in, low maintenance and pretty hassle free. Plus you know that anything you manage to squeeze in the flat is going to be less hassle to move and fit in anywhere else.