Britain 'Heading For Recession'

[menthel]

Please dont start me on Darwin, what ive said is im not greedy. And natural selection has nothing to do with wanting a bigger house/ faster car. I'm 100% happy with my genetics thanks. And if you read back as ive already stated im a very very hard worker. Imagination is what set Homo Sapiens apart from Homo heidelbergensis, Homo neanderthalensis not the want for more mammal meat than they could ever eat or "drive" as you call it. Sure the ability of humans to think past the her and now is what set us apart from other Apes, but the ability to capitalise on their fellow man, should only be a factor in a life or death situation. and outside of this is greed.

Humans should only take what they need, this is off topic now.

so in relation to the thread from now on please

Ooh, quoting human evolution. Back on topic, your ideas do not fit in with this society. Communism has been tried and failed (unless you missed that bit) and market forces are what rule our society and most of the planet today (even those undiscovered tribes in the Amazon) and fluctuations are expected and all part of the system. However, what you advocate is a complete destruction of that system- that would not do us any good as a species, in fact it would be more dangerous than global warming! The system has checks and balances, positives and negatives and we just have to live with them. Its not about the 'american dream' you keep quoting but living within a market driven, capitalistic society whilst hopefully exerting our own tiny influence on it to try to make it a better place for ourselves and everyone else.

I think that part of the problem is the skew of your views, out on the extreme left wing a liberal such as myself can appear like a crazed thatcherite.

Ooh, argueing on the internets is such fun!

[j1979]

I think that part of the problem is the skew of your views, out on the extreme left wing a liberal such as myself can appear like a crazed thatcherite.

Ooh, argueing on the internets is such fun!

yes it is fun!

the problem is that thatcherism is now centre ground. as far as popular opinion seems to be concerned

[j1979]

I am trying to work out if you are young, naive and simply do not understand how the world works or you are older and just an idiot that thinks the world owes themself whatever they happen to want at the time.

OK BadAss, First of all, are you American? because its called an Arse over here not an Ass. An ass is a donkey.

Second please dont call me or anyone else an idiot.

Third please read the thread, ive never stated that i feel im owed something, Quote me where ive said this!!!!

and in answer to your question im 29

[neonplanet40]

I somehow doubt we are entering a post WW2 situation. And definetly no where near as bad as the 1929 depression Thats just people talking through their hats.

However we are entering a tuff period especially for the working class. Brown should have done more to prevent this in the long run but thats the past new. Its what he and his government do now to control it that will define how good they are and whether or not they deserve to be in power.

[menthel]

yes it is fun!

the problem is that thatcherism is now centre ground. as far as popular opinion seems to be concerned

Not for me. She drove the drive for greed which you describe. That is not my drive- mine is to do well and suceed in life and for me that is to live comfortably, have a job that I enjoy and a loving family around me. It also entails making whatever difference I can to the wider world, however small that may be and making sure that I voice my concerns as and when possible within the democratic system that we have. That to me is the hardest bit as the democratic system at the moment makes it very difficult to express my views in a meaningful way.

[j1979]

Not for me. She drove the drive for greed which you describe. That is not my drive- mine is to do well and suceed in life and for me that is to live comfortably, have a job that I enjoy and a loving family around me.

good for you! i am not/never was talking about the average middle class person. i was talking about people earning stupidly high wages.

[menthel]

good for you! i am not/never was talking about the average middle class person. i was talking about people earning stupidly high wages.

That is the problem, you assume that the stupidly rich are in some way evil but without them we would not have an economy. Its annoying but true. Also where would charities etc be without their donations? For example Bill Gates' foundation is giving money to curing diseases that would never see that level of investment from governments. Sad but true. Some may use their charitable donations as methods for getting tax breaks but the charities still benefit.

The problem is with certain sectors seeing easy money- banking and other financial services being the main problem, when the economic circumstances were good. They just did not account for the fact that some people just cannot pay back the money that they are lending and those that did just expected to be bailed out by governments. Hence many of our current problems.

Oil prices are another example (and very thatcherite) as these were pushed up by speculators in the futures markets banking on very high oil prices because of short supply in the very near future- greater demand=higher prices. Now that the expected supply problems have dissapated the speculators are no longer buying and so the price has gone down (if only slightly).

[badass]

OK BadAss, First of all, are you American? because its called an Arse over here not an Ass. An ass is a donkey.

No I'm not american and I can't be bothered to explain why I chose this username to you.

Second please dont call me or anyone else an idiot.

Third please read the thread, ive never stated that i feel im owed something, Quote me where ive said this!!!!

and in answer to your question im 29

Below is a quote from you earlier in this thread.

yes im no begruding anyone higher wages, but the gap is far too high. besides ive graduated, ive worked hard, true i dont have the "Drive/Ambition" but at the end of the day those two words actully mean i want more money... and to be fair im not a greedy <>, i just want the oppertunity to own a very small peice of the country i was born in.

So please dont try and sell me the "American Dream"

I've bolded the important bit for you.

i dont know what your defending here, is it your god given right to be the lord of the mannor?

and its not jealousy its hatred.. not for people with lots of money but for people who think they some how NEED 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x 8x more than thier neighbors.

and as for people who work away from home, it would'nt be hard to impliment some sceme to accomodate them. your clutching at straws, and finding excuses for the inexcusable.

and yes i do want the rental market to implode and all buy to let people to lose their money because their greedy, greedy, greedy people.

And nothing like a bit of inverted snobbery to go with it.

Evil?? the average house price &#163;180,000 (14 x my salary)

And that is why you can't afford a house. You don't get paid enough. No one can afford a house on less than &#163;13k. No matter how much you want to own one.
How about this: Put some effort into your life and get a decent wage. The average person in this country earns nearly &#163;28.000. More than twice your wage.
No wonder you can;t afford a house. Everyone wants one and everyone else has more money to buy one than you.
I remember a similar discussion with another fool who earnt about the same amount and he also seemed to think that the world owed him what he wanted.
Working hard doesn't just mean turning up at 9am, doing your job and leaving at 6pm. It means bettering yourself, and working to advance yourself wither within your company or elsewhere.
And before you start trying to suggest I look down on you because of your wage, its not that. I think you are foolish because you think that you deserve better without actually putting any effort into bettering yourself.

[Brucelles]

I do worry that the stupidly rich and the average people are becoming too far apart. Communism isn't the answer, but a top-heavy society where 0.1&#37; of the people have 90% of the money isn't either. Wilson's government thought to combat that with 99% Super Tax on the very high-earners, so they left the country. It is possible to stimulate a society at the same time as spreading the jam around a bit more equitably; it would just take a clever money man, whether as PM or as chancellor.

I also don't think Thatcherism as such is middle ground. There was more to Maggie than just her 'feed the rich' policy. Some of it was awful and some of it was good; I regard her smashing of the unions as a good thing in the end, but her means of achieving it were reprehensible. The legacy she left us was a bitter one, but with some lasting impacts. If she hadn't been popular she wouldn't have served three whole terms in office, which allowed her to make social change using economics as the weapon. As usual what happened is that we kept the good parts of what she gave us and spat out the bad, generally.

[TheAnimus]

Whilst some of the effects of the Thatcherist reforms where painful, can anyone honestly suggest a better way of busting inflation?

I think the bitter pill did make good foundations.

[nwmark]

definately a drop of 20-30%.

Many houses near me are already down 10-15% within the last 6 months, and there is no sign of this picking up either.

[menthel]

Whilst some of the effects of the Thatcherist reforms where painful, can anyone honestly suggest a better way of busting inflation?

I think the bitter pill did make good foundations.

There can be no doubt that some of what she did had to be done but the societal change it triggered with regards to greed and the such like was not good.

[j1979]

[QUOTE=badass;1479220]Put some effort into your life and get a decent wage[QUOTE]

are you blind? can you not read, badass?

hard hard work is all i have done for years.

[badass]

Put some effort into your life and get a decent wage

are you blind? can you not read, badass?

hard hard work is all i have done for years.

Yet everything you have posted in this thread indicates otherwise.
Either that or you're hard working but not very bright.

[TheAnimus]

which without been rude begs the question, why is it less than half the average wage?

There are plenty of locations where the average wage is considerably less than national, often these places are labour heartlands. Given that they've been in power for so many years, i've yet to understand why these people still vote that way...

[Kumagoro]

I think a lot of what has gone on in the housing situation is greed and people thinking they
can make or even deserve money without doing anything.

The Buy To Let people MEW'ed to the hilt are the ones in the deepest cack, seeing as many of
them invested in flats they will be hit really hard. Most people want to live in houses and only
live in flats because they cant afford the place they want.

Even if they try to get out now they will have a hard job shifting their place.