Graduate jobs!

[TheAnimus]

Sorry...that used to be the case but it isn't now (in most cases anyway.

No, its really going the other way, because some idoits who want to play social designer have decided to compeltely de-value the degree by suggesting 50% of people should have them (how moronic can you get?!) a degree is often a worthless tickbox. You MUST have it to even begin to get a lookin. It dosen't mean your going to be good or anything, but its a quick way of saying that your one of the better 50%.

I didnt get my degree until i was 31 but i was still earning 3 times as much as a friend of mine that is a graduate and been a social worker for the last 12 years . And that was before i got the degree.

Hardly proof thou, it needs to be an average, i could lement how my friend who's a nurse (highly skilled occupation) earns less than a fraction of a bonus.... Dosen't make it the trend.

Simple fact is those with a degree, on average earn more by the time their 30. Those who are 23 on the other hand do not. That was the crossing point on the Dsfed figures we had when i used to do the whole mentoring disadvantaged children (helping them get onto a-levels and possibly the path so that they'd have the option for uni). So, its true that as a grad fresh out of uni odds are you will earn less than someone who'd just worked for 3 years. But that figure rapidly changes.

(the only argument here is a case of weather its the degree, or the fact that people who hold degrees are on average, more intelegent than those who don't.....)

[Blitzen]

the only argument here is a case of weather its the degree, or the fact that people who hold degrees are on average, more intelegent than those who don't.....

I think that argument is exactly where it all falls flat though. That statement is far too broad. Are you seriously telling me that someone that has a 2:1 in Media Studies is more intelligent than someone with good A level results. NO WAY!!

20 years or more ago, a degree was a great achievement and it was people that had a greater level of learning that sought them.

You have to admit, that nowadays ANYONE can get a degree. The higher education system, is a regular way of dodging working for a living rather than aiming to be educated to higher level.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that anyone who goes to university is work shy, but there DEFINITELY is a fair number that are.

Also, i am not saying that anyone could get ANY degree. There are obviously subjects such as the sciences/engineering/anything truly academic where you really do have to be at a higher level to participate and pass.
Unfortunately, there are many other degrees that my 9 year old could pass. The non-academic courses are the ones which have undermined the entire higher education system, and its the people that have taken these (excuses) for degrees, that have de-valued them for everyone else.

[Zadock]

I think that argument is exactly where it all falls flat though. That statement is far too broad. Are you seriously telling me that someone that has a 2:1 in Media Studies is more intelligent than someone with good A level results. NO WAY!!

20 years or more ago, a degree was a great achievement and it was people that had a greater level of learning that sought them.

You have to admit, that nowadays ANYONE can get a degree. The higher education system, is a regular way of dodging working for a living rather than aiming to be educated to higher level.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that anyone who goes to university is work shy, but there DEFINITELY is a fair number that are.

Also, i am not saying that anyone could get ANY degree. There are obviously subjects such as the sciences/engineering/anything truly academic where you really do have to be at a higher level to participate and pass.
Unfortunately, there are many other degrees that my 9 year old could pass. The non-academic courses are the ones which have undermined the entire higher education system, and its the people that have taken these (excuses) for degrees, that have de-valued them for everyone else.

I would have to agree with Blitzen here. there a subjects, particularly those mentioned, that are very hard and do take some serious dedication to pass... a further point there is that the UK is suffering from a serious lack of scientists and engineers.

There are so many "micky mouse" degrees you can do, in which I fail to see the real world value... these certainly do undermine the value of degrees. I'm a scientist myself and it really annoyed me how I had to do a greater quanity and difficulty of work to achieve the grade I did where as other people seemed to be able to just piss their way through their (e.g. media studies) entire degree and still manage to pass it somehow?!

[TheAnimus]

No, statistics don't work like that (as you damn well know!)

And thats got me into daily mail mode about statistics been so badly taught.... everyone should of read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-That-I.../dp/1861978391
by the time their in secondary school!

We're both in agreement degrees are been horrifically de-valued.
We're both in agreement that more and more people are going to have them.

Do we both agree on the stat that people with degrees earn more by the time their 30. On average (mean).

Now, that is not to say for a second that you WILL earn more, only that your more likely too.

Same goes for piss take Ba degrees. They are the worst of the have degree camp, the no have degree camp also has its share of retards to drag it down, thats not to say that you can't have someone who's smarter than a degree holder in the non camp. Not at all. Only that its less likely. Its intresting this was a point you picked up on, because i was saying that this is the only other reason why it might be that its not the degree that causes graddies to earn more than non.

So what i'm getting at is having a degree is a very good bet, but, obviously dosen't mean you've got a silver spoon in your mouth.

[Blitzen]

I think in a roundabout way we actually agree

But Animus......your facts regarding 30 year old earnings with and without a degree will only hold water for so long (even though it may be true at the moment).

As we have all agreed, a degree has nowhere near as much worth these days as it did 15-20 years ago. So....by that token, and if every Tom, Dick and Harry had one, regardless of the strength of it, this wage gap will close.

Employers and companies arent stupid and they will soon realise that you will get the same calibre of person, whether degree educated or not. (this obviously does have some exceptions though i grant you.......like the truly academic requirements in sciences or engineering for instance).

[Saracen]

I think one thing needs to be clearly understood. Anything we say about this is going to be a generalisation, probably based on personal experience which, whether you value experience or a degree, or in what proportion, and that personal experience isn't necessarily indicative of the wider situation.

Personally, I view the degree as evidence of a basic level of smarts, and of a basic level of having demonstrated the ability to apply yourself. You won't, generally, get a degree if you're stupid and that certainly applies to better uni's and/or courses.

But ..... having a degree in anything, from anywhere, doesn't necessarily prove you'll be any good at a given job.

And also, the other side of that coin is that having several years experience instead of a degree doesn't prove you'll be better at it than the one without the degree. People have been known to succeed in life without a degree. Richard Branson and Alan Sugar come to mind. Bill Gates is an interesting case in point because, from what I know of the bloke, he'd certainly have got his degree but he deliberately chose another path and opted not to go for it. That lack doesn't seem to have inhibited him terribly much.

So, my view is this :-

- a degree merely established a couple of those fundamentals
- outside of specific careers where the subject matter is fundamental (engineering, physics, medicine, etc) the actual learning isn't of much direct value
- the degree does two things - it opens doors at the start of the career, and gives you a key to getting past the glass ceiling later on, in many fields

Getting a degree does NOT qualify you for many jobs up-front. In my case, it qualified me to start a three year work/training/exam cycle that leads, if you stick with it and measure up, to being a Chartered Accountant. But it's the start, and by 'eck, do you have a learning curve ahead of you. And, it's not (or wasn't, in my day, dunno about now) even absolutely mandatory to be a Chartered Accountant. You could qualify without a degree .... it was just five years training instead of three.

Essentially, the degree was a minor short-cut to qualification, and merely demonstrated that you were good enough to start the training. And, in the first few months, guess who got a lot of experience of making the tea for the more experienced members of the team!

On the other hand, while Branson, Sugar et. al. provide pointed examples that a degree is not a prerequisite for success, if you look at who's sitting in the boardrooms of major companies, you'll find a significant preponderance of graduates, and often, in engineering, law and accountancy. If the executive washroom has a code-locked door, the degree gives you the first couple of digits in the code.

So, in my case, the degree got the door to the accountancy training open. But, I have to say, it didn't guarantee it. I still had to do the interviews, outperform competitors and convince partners on the firm to make the offer. And not everyone succeeded in that.

Are degrees worth having?

It depends what you want to do. In some cases, you'd be better off spending your time getting on-the-job training. Plumbing seems like a likely example. In others, the degree is the best bet, such as with accountancy and, I rather suspect, law. In some cases, it'll put you in the running, like for my accountancy articles. And, in may cases, it'll do the same again much later in your career, when you find yourself up against people with some years experience but no degree. In many cases, that is enough for you to be short-listed.

Let me explain that last bit. When looking at someone with 10 years experience and a good degree, versus someone with 13 years experience and no degree, the degree can be the deciding factor in getting on that short-list. Not "will be", but "can be". I have certainly come across a fair few companies, many in the US, where technical people (such as computing) hit a wall when it comes to moving from a purely technical field to management, and sometimes even to senior technical roles where there's a managerial element, even if it isn't managing staff. At that point, not having the degree can be a serious hindrance.

So would I recommend people getting a degree? Depends what they intend to do. If you're going to start your own business, it's probably not necessary. It can be a great 3-year experience, but if you go that route, puts a three year delay on getting started. If you're going for a trade, you'd probably be better advised to spend your time getting work experience than a degree in, whatever. How much use is a geography degree, or maths, or media studies, going to be to the average plumber or bricky? But three years experience?

On the other hand, if you're intending, if you'll excuse the badly mangled mixed metaphor, to climb the slippery pole up the corporate rat-race ladder, the degree will likely be useful in years to come.

But it certainly doesn't mean you're automatically qualified, even for 'menial' jobs like an office temp, which can actually require a lot more skill and experience than it might seem.

[TheAnimus]

You see this is where you and i differ.

I think the problem is this will rather than just devalue the degree as a novelty, make it an essential.

if every tom dick and harry has one, its a great way to sh!t sift. You can just EXPECT it.

It becomes devalued, but essental none the less.

What then happens is its only Masters, or Degrees in certain subjects that are considered of merrit.

This is what happens when the socalists try and re-design things, they actually often end up widening the gap between the haves and the have nots.

[Saracen]

There is a considerable logic in that, Animus.

I've seen university admissions people saying the same thing about A-Levels. If, for example, 5% of applicants have grade As, it says something useful. If 70% of people have grade As, then it doesn't. It doesn't give the uni a yardstick by which the compare, or select, applicants. Therefore, they want to do it by interview, or by matriculation exam.

Therefore, does the increasing pass rate and the increasing 'achievement' at high grade do students any favours? Probably not, because all it succeeds in doing is devaluing the usefulness of those exam passes to a major user of exam results, that being Uni admissions people (especially at prestigious or high level unis). and, presumably, employers either already do or certainly will come to the same view.

Does a degree mean what it did 20 years ago. Nope, not a chance. But does that say anything about the strengths of the people getting them now versus 20 years ago? Dunno, but I doubt it. They're certainly more accessible these days and that may well be all it tells us. But that doesn't stop the value having been degraded, though.

[Blitzen]

to climb the slippery pole up the corporate rat-race ladder, the degree will likely be useful in years to come.

Yep...and thats why i did it when i was 31 rather than 20

[AledJ]

I'm not really going to argue any major point, but to say that i do not expect to by on £40k+, have employers wanting me left right and centre etc. As has been said I just want to get through that job door and work my way up. In fact I would consider myself lucky to start on £16k !

At the moment I'm all out of ideas! I have applied for gods knows how many jobs. As I have said i'll work for £16k if it means someone will give me a job which if i put the work in will lead to greater things. I don't even mind starting at the bottom to gain the necessary experience if that's what it takes.

Should I call this employer (the one who said they would call me within 2 weeks) and see what's goign on? They did say if i had not heard anything to call them back so they could chase my file up.

[Saracen]

....

Should I call this employer (the one who said they would call me within 2 weeks) and see what's goign on? They did say if i had not heard anything to call them back so they could chase my file up.

Well, in that situation, yes, I would personally.

There's a line to be walked between being a pain, and showing enthusiasm and initiative. For example, I'd often send a CV, then a few days later, call "just to check that it's been received". That shows a bit of enthusiasm, suggests you're serious about the job and, if you're very lucky (and it depends on the size and type of firm) might get you talking to the person making the selection. And if so, you've a chance to subtly do a bit of self-marketing.

And other than the cost of the call, what do you have to lose?

[AledJ]

Well just called them and apparently there waiting for the recruitment manager to get back to them. Oh and there's three other people going for the job lol ah well nothing like a bit of competition!

[AledJ]

Think I may be on to something here! The company i was referring too above are the engineering company Enterprise. Just had an email to see if i would be interested in a Graduate – Project Management role within Wales. Now if this works out i'll be super happy! I mean I have said that I would relocate for a job, but if i can get the job and stay in Wales even better

[SiM]

I haven't read this whole discussion in full, but I would like to add that out of all teh people who graduated from my course and are working in London, the average salary + sign on for the first year is about £40k... End of year bonus for some people is on top of that too!
I am 100% certain that I would not have the job I have without a degree.

I agree that there are degrees out there that can be considered useless and do not add value to certain individuals in certain jobs, but for the vast majority of people who don't do "unemployable" courses, good jobs offers prior to graduation are much more accessible

[Blitzen]

I haven't read this whole discussion in full, but I would like to add that out of all teh people who graduated from my course and are working in London, the average salary + sign on for the first year is about £40k... End of year bonus for some people is on top of that too!
I am 100% certain that I would not have the job I have without a degree.

I agree that there are degrees out there that can be considered useless and do not add value to certain individuals in certain jobs, but for the vast majority of people who don't do "unemployable" courses, good jobs offers prior to graduation are much more accessible

If its 40K fresh out of Uni then thats decent enough

The fact that its in London though does negate that by a good percentage though.

[Barrichello]

I am 100% certain that I would not have the job I have without a degree.

But, at the same time for those of us without degree's, it is worth remembering that many jobs that state they require a degree actually do not if you do have the relevant skillset and experience. Do not let this put you off applying.