Who is responsible?

[Koolpc]

My brother-in-law built a pc for a work mate last july and the last couple of weeks he has been back to his work mate to try fix the pc as he has been having problems with it shutting down for no reason, now and again.

Well, my brother-in-law has changed nearly all the components for new ones, all except the CPU. Everything else has been replaced for new components. He has now ordered a new TFT for the guy.

Now, if the guy still has the same issues and my brother-in-law has changed almost everything, is he still responsible for getting the PC to work?

He has almost built a new PC for the guy!!

Temps are fine on the PC. Memtest has been fine, etc etc. Everything is seated correctly and wired correctly. He builds PC's all the time and has done for years.

He can't replicate the problem himself as the PC is always ok when he tries it himself at home.

What would you advise? He has spent out a fair bit of money swapping components. How does he stand in 'Law'?

[Agent]

Law issues aside, it comes down to 2 things:

1)It's faulty / external factors causing issues
2)User error

Either way, it would probably just have been cheaper to give him a refund.

I very rarely build a PC for anyone these days. Not only do they want the moon on a stick, but when they manage to get the latest spyware of the month, its your fault.

[Koolpc]

He has asked for a refund but Brother-in-law has refused. Where does he stand regarding the law?

Guy has had it since last July.

[Stringent]

I don't build for people either now too much hassle, I get them to buy off Dell or the like and if there is a problem Dell can deal with it.

MIGHT be a power issue ... does the guy have a surge protector?

I agree with Agent, would probably be less hassle to give him a refund rather than battle it out.

[shaithis]

Was it done formally? I.e. receipt/warranty/support etc?

If the guy can't prove that, then he could be left with sorting it himself and using manufacturers warranties

But random shut down...........sounds like the kind of thing to take away and check on a different power ring and monitored heavily for heat built-up.

Some problems can't always be resolved/troubleshooted in it's installed environment.

[Koolpc]

Thing is, it i sometimes ok for a few days and the it starts but the TFT then goes off!! He is thinking of sorting out a different TFT to see if that is the problem. All else is fine.

When he had the base unit home and was testing it all was great. No issues.

It was done with proper receipts.

How does he stand by law if the guy demands a refund after 6 months or so even though my brother-in-law has replaced nearly all components and can't replicate the problem himself?

[Saracen]

.... How does he stand in 'Law'?

Does bro-in-law do this as a business? Bear in mind that's a pretty vague term.

If not, and he sold a computer as consumer to consumer, then other than being held to any descriptions he gave as being accurate, the rule of law is essentially "caveat emptor" .... "let the buyer beware".

If I sell you a car (or a PC), as a private individual to another private individual, then I can be held to account for anything I say about the car or PC. If it's a PC and I tell you it's a Q6600 with 4GB of RAM, it needs to be a Q6600 with 4GB of RAM. But if you buy it, get it home and the next day, the hard drive packs up, tough luck. You might be upset, but it was for you to satisfy yourself that the machine was working satisfactorily. An old legal adage for this situation is "when buying a horse, walk round and check that there's a leg on each corner".

If he sold it as part of a business, then it's a good bit trickier, but it has still passed the critical 6-month point. As a business seller, your bro-in-law is going to be responsible, for up to 6 years, for the duties placed on him by the Sale of Goods Act (and amendments) etc. That does not mean he's liable for anything that goes wrong for 6 years, but that he might be.

If he's in business, did he offer any warranty/guarantee? If so, what did it say?

Other than that, the default position is that he's only responsible for faults that were inherent at the time of sale. So ..... the first thing is to determine and/or decide what's going wrong. Suppose it's the CPU. If the CPU is not faulty, why???

If, when it was sold, the CPU has a fault that has only just become noticeable, but was there at time of sale, your bro-in-law is probably responsible.

If the CPU is not showing problems because he didn't install it properly, or didn't take adequate anti-static precautions and that's what's causing the problems, then as a business he's liable.

If, however, the CPU is not faulty because his mate replaced the CPU cooler and didn't do it right, or because he just took it off to have a look at didn't seat the CPU properly afterwards, or didn't use enough (or too much) thermal compound, then it isn't a fault that can be attributed to something that existed at the time of sale, and he isn't liable.

So who has to prove what?

If your bro-in-law is a business seller, then the statutes say that for the first six months, your bro-in-law has to prove that whatever the fault it, it was not there at the time of sale, or it's presumed that it was. After six months, that position reverses, and the buyer has to be able to prove the fault did exist at time of sale, or the law presumes it did not.

Where it's get a bit tricky is if your bro-in-law has tacitly accepted the problem by continually trying to fix it, by replacing bits.

But then, from what you've said, has the buyer actually been able to demonstrate yet that their actually is a fault at all? It sounds like your bro-in-law is just taking the mate's work for it, but has been unable to actually get the fault to occur himself.

Could it be inadequate ventilation round the PC where his mate has it?

Could it be a mains spike coming from the mate's boiler, or when his washing machine kicks in? Etc.

Could it be a virus or some kind of malware?

Personally, I certainly wouldn't be replacing a monitor unless there's good reason to suspect that that is somehow causing the problem, or even that there actually is a problem at all.

This is, as others have said, why I don't build PCs for mates, and if I build them for anybody, I nail all this stuff down in advance, in writing. On the rare occasions I still do it at all, I'll advise on what to get, perhaps where to get it, and either just do the build as a favour or charge for it, on the basis that I'll fix any problems I caused, but won't be responsible for sundry hardware failures, and that unless problems prove to be down to something I did, then any time I spend fixing them is billable at usual rates. To be honest, that's enough to put most mates off asking me which, of course, was the point of the exercise.

But if you don't take that type of stance, then building a PC and making £50 to £100 out of it ( or even more, if you can manage it) can quickly turn from an apparently easy earner into an expensive and seemingly endless commitment, not just to fix, but to support.

No shop is going to replace component after component without even seeing the problem. Nor, in my opinion, should your bro-in-law, even if he's doing this as a business, and certainly not if it's a favour as a private individual. If he's a private individual, his mate is taking the pee letting him do this, much less expecting it. If he's just done his mate a favour, saving him money by building him a cheap (for the spec) PC, and making a few quid for his time, labour and expertise, it's unreasonable to expect him to make a huge less replacing it all when there's a problem, especially if it might well be nothing to do with what he's done, if it even exists.

[menthel]

As usual Saracen comes to the rescue1

One really silly question: has he changed the VGA or DVI lead or has he kept using the old one? Easy to overlook but could be the reason!

[Saracen]

How does he stand by law if the guy demands a refund after 6 months or so even though my brother-in-law has replaced nearly all components and can't replicate the problem himself?

He has no legal right, as far as I'm concerned, to demand a refund after 6 months, at least in the first instance. Even a business can decline that, and they usually would.

They would however, be expected to rectify any faults that were inherent (as per last post) at time of sale, either by repair or replacement.

However, either your bro-in-law and his "mate" have to reach an agreement, or ultimately, your bro-in-law can walk away and the mate would have to sue. If that happens, the mate would have to prove that there is a fault, and that it was inherent at time of sale. If he can't he'd lose (at least, in theory, but bear in mind, courts sometimes do their own thing).

One thing a court always looks at is if each party has behaved reasonably. would suggest that by replacing all the bits he has (and hopefully, can prove he has, your bro-in-law has gone so far beyond "reasonable" he's barely still on the same planet.

Were it me, I'd be tempted to dig my heels in and say, ....

"look, I've replaced part after part, and still can't even reproduce the fault. Unless you can demonstrate the fault to me, there's nothing more I can do."


Bear in mind, I'm not a lawyer and your bro-in-law either needs to get professional advice on all this, or take the risks himself if he does that and it goes wrong. All this is just opinion on a forum, not legal advice.

[Koolpc]

Well, my Bro-in-law did see that the PC came on and then the picture went off before windows loaded while at his mates house.

Thing is, he unplugged the TFT and then put it back in, entered windows via Safe Mode and all was ok.

Next time he got called out to his mates he Formatted the PC and all was ok once more.

Then a few days later his mate called him again saying the picture had gone again. He then collected the PC and connected it up at home only to find he could not 'Replicate' the problem.

He then decided to change some components (Nearly all of them) Set the pc back up again and gave it back to his mate after using the PC for 3 days (Testing)

Again, a few days later his mate rings him again to say the pic has gone again!!

The only thing he hadn't checked was the TFT. So, he has now managed to get it exchanged under warranty. The replacement TFT should be with his mate in a weeks time. In the mean time, my Bro-in-law is lending the guy an old CRT monitor to use until he gets the replacement, hoping the problem won't appear meaning the TFT was indeed faulty.

If after all this the problem still comes back, what should he do? He is in the business so to speak as he started being self employed fixing PC's etc about a year ago.

If the guy demands a refund can my Bro-in-law get away with:

A. Telling the guy to get it fixed elsewhere as he has exhausted all avenues

B. Tell the guy to bog off

C. Offer the guy a percentage as a refund?

I said i would ask on here as there are some very helpful guys on here. Thanks

[Jay]

this was you wasn't it?

[Blitzen]

this was you wasn't it?

Haha....just what i was thinking

[j1979]

Well, my Bro-in-law did see that the PC came on and then the picture went off before windows loaded while at his mates house.

Thing is, he unplugged the TFT and then put it back in, entered windows via Safe Mode and all was ok.

Next time he got called out to his mates he Formatted the PC and all was ok once more.

Then a few days later his mate called him again saying the picture had gone again. He then collected the PC and connected it up at home only to find he could not 'Replicate' the problem.

He then decided to change some components (Nearly all of them) Set the pc back up again and gave it back to his mate after using the PC for 3 days (Testing)

Again, a few days later his mate rings him again to say the pic has gone again!!

The only thing he hadn't checked was the TFT. So, he has now managed to get it exchanged under warranty. The replacement TFT should be with his mate in a weeks time. In the mean time, my Bro-in-law is lending the guy an old CRT monitor to use until he gets the replacement, hoping the problem won't appear meaning the TFT was indeed faulty.

If after all this the problem still comes back, what should he do? He is in the business so to speak as he started being self employed fixing PC's etc about a year ago.

If the guy demands a refund can my Bro-in-law get away with:

A. Telling the guy to get it fixed elsewhere as he has exhausted all avenues

B. Tell the guy to bog off

C. Offer the guy a percentage as a refund?

I said i would ask on here as there are some very helpful guys on here. Thanks

might not be faulty, might be a feature on the monitor (power saving) or might just be a faulty backlight, a lose connection in the tft plug or tft PSU.

my tft goes off after 10 seconds, if turned on before the pc. it wont work unless the pc is rebooted and the tft is on standby. the monitor is NEC.

[Koolpc]

this was you wasn't it?

Lol. No, i am not into building for other people. Too much hassle.

[Koolpc]

might not be faulty, might be a feature on the monitor (power saving) or might just be a faulty backlight, a lose connection in the tft plug or tft PSU.

my tft goes off after 10 seconds, if turned on before the pc. it wont work unless the pc is rebooted and the tft is on standby. the monitor is NEC.

Never heard of that? How does one get around that?

[j1979]

Never heard of that? How does one get around that?

do you have the monitor handbook? if you do... have a flick through, or try and find a pdf version. probably not that but worth a look maybe?!