Manchester to get ID cards First

[Lee H]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8035002.stm

It appears Manchester is going to be the first place that the ID cards are going to launched.

Is this just another stealth tax on us? Is it a good idea? Is it the government getting their own back after the controversial congestion charge plan from last year?

I personally don't see the point. I've got a driving license, I've got a passport, what more official ID do I need?

Not only will police be able to read the RFID from the ID card, but immigration officers, job centre and other public service staff will all eventually be issued with scanners enabling them to check a person's identity. You will also be able to use ID cards in shops, banks, pubs and other businesses.

Hmmm....Tracking our each and every movement around now are we Mr Brown?

I say stick your ID card where the sun doesn't shine and bugger off back to Scotland ol' one eye.

[Infinite]

Frankly, I don't care.

Stealth tax? Well I am getting a card with my fingerprints in it, am i rite?
Good idea? If it helps stop fraud, terrorism, etc, sure... why not.
Own back? Well, the plan for ID cards have been in the works for years, but Manchester chosen? What better place to test an identity verification system than a place full of illegal immigrants.

Well an ID card has to have some real life use right, and not just for Government use. So it would make sense for shops, banks, etc...


You do realize however, that we are only one of the few countries in the world that doesn't have a proper ID card system in place yet.

I have a Hong Kong ID card and to be honest it is pretty damn useful. I can fast-track immigration officer at the airport when I enter the country. I put just my card in barrier gate thing, swipe my finger and it lets me straight in.

[handscombmp]

I think its wrong that you have to pay for them (if they make them mandatory)and you need a passport which you also have to pay for.
As for helping stop terrisom etc i'm not sure as i can only see that being useful if everyone has to have one.

[badass]

Frankly, I don't care.

Stealth tax? Well I am getting a card with my fingerprints in it, am i rite?
Good idea? If it helps stop fraud, terrorism, etc, sure... why not.

Please explain how an ID card will stop terrorism?

[Agent]

Please explain how an ID card will stop terrorism?

In the same way that passports and driving licenses do.......oh wait

[JK Ferret]

In the same way that passports and driving licenses do.......oh wait

That's exactly it though. They're using terrorism as a stupid reason to try and justify it all, when we know and they know that it will do sweet FA.

[arthurleung]

Frankly, I don't care.

Stealth tax? Well I am getting a card with my fingerprints in it, am i rite?
Good idea? If it helps stop fraud, terrorism, etc, sure... why not.
Own back? Well, the plan for ID cards have been in the works for years, but Manchester chosen? What better place to test an identity verification system than a place full of illegal immigrants.

Well an ID card has to have some real life use right, and not just for Government use. So it would make sense for shops, banks, etc...


You do realize however, that we are only one of the few countries in the world that doesn't have a proper ID card system in place yet.

I have a Hong Kong ID card and to be honest it is pretty damn useful. I can fast-track immigration officer at the airport when I enter the country. I put just my card in barrier gate thing, swipe my finger and it lets me straight in.

Yup, only takes like 20 seconds to get through immigration instead of 20 minutes+ in Heathrow!
Only if human trafficking in UK is as back as Hong Kong used to be. UK wouldn't care if there are a few hundred thousands illegal workers in the country. the same few hundred thousand would be catastrophic in Hong Kong. And the easiest way to check in Hong Kong is to get everyone to flash their ID cards, or in case you forget to bring your ID card (very very rare), you can at least tell the police the ID card Number which they can easily just check up over the radio (or not).

It all depends on how the system is implemented and run. Obviously UK have a very bad track record with the muppets messing around not caring about data security.

To be honest I don't see how expensive it is to run the system. You only need the reader in airports, seaports, police stations and perhaps a dedicated office in your council. I lost my Hong Kong ID twice and it cost like 40 quids to replace each time, but otherwise your first card is free.

Nowadays I use my HKID to get into pubs in UK, as I don't have a driving license :S Most places (if not all) accepts it as it looks all techy with the chip on the card.

[Agent]

Yup, only takes like 20 seconds to get through immigration instead of 20 minutes+ in Heathrow!

There are a lot of other reasons this could be the case though.

If they we're truly interested in identifying people, they would concentrate on fixing the existing systems. That's without even getting into the fact that ID cards are not secure.

[how1]

I don't see any problem in have an ID card.

[TheAnimus]

well we all know that northerners are all jobless criminals who can't be trusted, finally the labour party are doing something about this.

i for one welcome our monitoring every inch of our lives overlords!

[arthurleung]

There are a lot of other reasons this could be the case though.

If they we're truly interested in identifying people, they would concentrate on fixing the existing systems. That's without even getting into the fact that ID cards are not secure.

The question is, how is ID cards not secure? How is it different from university student id cards? How is it different from IP addresses (computers are identified by IP addresses not netbios names). Or how it it different from your NI number?

In Hong Kong, banks, hospitals, government agencies identify you through your ID number. The systems are also not inter-linked. If I remember correctly the system is setup that you can only look-up patients / bank customer using ID card number, NOT the other way around. (

That solved the problem of data secrecy when hospital staff / police officers look up profiles of celebrities in PERSONAL INTEREST. The major BENEFIT of ID card system, when implemented CORRECTLY is that, you cannot open bank accounts / get benefits without ID card (cuts frauds), services identify you ONLY by your ID not your name (cuts illegal data lookups). Oh and the added benefit of having a credit rating that is NOT related to your address. (That sucks because I move EVERY YEAR and I ended up having poor credit rating to even get a phone contract).

You could fake names in the current UK system, but you CAN'T fake ID numbers when they don't EXIST in the system. The loophole is then moved to the home office which is similar to how people use fake names to apply for passports.

When the current system is so ****** up there is no way you can close that loophole. Though I believe it is certainly not as easy as applying for bank accounts or benefits.

Manchester is a student city it is probably the best place to start.

[steve threlfall]

ID cards. Theys WILL stop terrorist5 and asseyeloom seekers!!!11

[Agent]

The question is, how is ID cards not secure? How is it different from university student id cards? How is it different from IP addresses (computers are identified by IP addresses not netbios names)

Show me any uni card or IP address that allows data to be captured from about 11 yards away that includes the photo, personal details of that person and their finger prints.

It's worse than any other type of card as you don't need physical access to copy it.

In Hong Kong, banks, hospitals, government agencies identify you through your ID number. The systems are also not inter-linked. If I remember correctly the system is setup that you can only look-up patients / bank customer using ID card number, NOT the other way around.

This is the way any system should be set up. There is no reason for a person to be able to back-trace information in most cases, unless you're the system admin.
It still does not prevent the person doing the checking copying the data down when checking in the first place.

That solved the problem of data secrecy when hospital staff / police officers look up profiles of celebrities. The major BENEFIT of ID card system, when implemented CORRECTLY is that, you cannot open bank accounts / get benefits without ID card (cuts frauds), services identify you ONLY by your ID not your name (cuts illegal data lookups).

Do you honestly trust the government to be able to run this system on time, on budget and for it to work given the history of government IT projects?

By the time it's up and running, a minister will have lost the disk with the encryption keys on, alone with everyone on the ID card scheme probably.

You could fake names, but you CAN'T fake ID numbers when they don't EXIST in the system.

Indeed - but you can use existing ones, or try to 'make' your own by 'making' a fake person.
ID cards will be largely based on existing systems (password and driving licences). I don't need to remind you how many of these are fake (Remember the David Blunkett driving licence gaff?), so how many will simply translate over to the new system?

All these issues aside, I'm yet to see one reason I find valid over the existing systems that justify spending billions of pounds in the current financial climate.

[how1]

Whatever the arguments, it will be implemented soon. Lets hope it is a good system.

[Agent]

Whatever the arguments, it will be implemented soon. Lets hope it is a good system.

They can implement it. It'll be interesting to see how people react to it, and certainly the ones who refuse to have one.

I just want to link this thread before we start going over things that have already been discussed

http://forums.hexus.net/question-tim...se-5-31bn.html

[arthurleung]

All these issues aside, I'm yet to see one reason I find valid over the existing systems that justify spending billions of pounds in the current financial climate.

If you divide that billions by may be 50% of UK population, the cost is NOT that high. And consider how much red-tape that could be cut from application processing across the board for almost every single government agency and cutting frauds.

But obviously that will make the unemployment number skyrocket when you cut those redundant jobs.

Show me any uni card or IP address that allows data to be captured from about 11 yards away that includes the photo, personal details of that person and their finger prints.

It's worse than any other type of card as you don't need physical access to copy it.

That is the only part I too don't agree with, unless a metal shield is included, chip is always a better choice. Although I find that odd that a photo is included in the RFID. I doubt the chip REALLY holds your photo but merely an encrypted key so that the profile could be look up from a database. I doubt a passive RFID have that kind of bandwidth.

It still does not prevent the person doing the checking copying the data down when checking in the first place.

If you're a normal person, no one would bother. If you are a celebrity, you WOULDN'T be in a public hospital / consumer banking and go straight to private hospital / private banking where business practice on privacy is far better. If you think you're a celebrity but couldn't afford private services you're not one.

Indeed - but you can use existing ones, or try to 'make' your own by 'making' a fake person.
ID cards will be largely based on existing systems (password and driving licences). I don't need to remind you how many of these are fake (Remember the David Blunkett driving licence gaff?), so how many will simply translate over to the new system?

That is PRECISELY WHY the ID card system should kick in ASAP. The process of applying for ID cards itself requires fingerprint. The system flags up when you apply for multiple ID cards using the same fingerprint (Could probably claw back some of the stolen benefits from there).

Lets say there is a method of faking the fingerprint. In time, human error like authenticate an ID card with a wrong fingerprint (e.g. you forgot which fingerprint correspond to which fake card you have like you have multiple credit cards and forget which PIN is for which) or you were drunk, whatever, will flag up. These fakes will get caught over time when you HAVE to use the ID everywhere.

The risk of using a fake card would be too high to the skill level of typical frauds.