No Smoking In Cars - argument version

[Disturbedguy]

You have now misrepresented me as much as you are going to, and then accused me of being deceitful, concealing my real motives or pretending, i.e. dissembling. I will not put up with that and if you do that again, you will lose your posting rights.

Respect goes both ways I'm affraid and that remark above is NOT showing Phage any respect at all in my opinion.

I will not put up with that and if you do that again, you will lose your posting rights.

How is that not telling him to shut up though? He has basically in my opinion telling Phage, post something again that I don' agree with and you wont be posting again.

Don't get me wrong, I have respect for all the members of staff on this forum, but sometimes, especially during arguements/ discussions the admin boots should be left at the door and normal person should enter.

[Zak33]

Obviously I am unable to comment any further.

by all means comment, but not upon what Saracen didn't say..

Saracen is a top bloke and he doesn't talk rubbish. But he also won't stand fully on one side of a fence when there is no legal grounds to do so... he;s more cautious than that. But dissembling...? In my head that's quite an offensive thing to say to someone. It's as nasty as saying he's lying.

Might as well call him Gordon Brown next.. really put the boot in

I on the other hand think that smoking at the wheel is dangerous. It should be illegal and if I had my way, it would be.

I smoked as a teenager for 6 months as an experiement.. and it makes you dizzy. I don't think being dizzy is a good thing when driving.

[Zak33]

Respect goes both ways I'm affraid and that remark above is NOT showing Phage any respect at all in my opinion.

How is that not telling him to shut up though? He has basically in my opinion telling Phage, post something again that I don' agree with and you wont be posting again.

nope.. he said call him a liar again(however it's worded) and we'll ban him. Me.. I'll do it.

Please don't call my colleagues liars. Or dissemblers in that context.. or Gordon Brown

[Phage]

by all means comment, but not upon what Saracen didn't say..

Saracen is a top bloke and he doesn't talk rubbish. But he also won't stand fully on one side of a fence when there is no legal grounds to do so... he;s more cautious than that. But dissembling...? In my head that's quite an offensive thing to say to someone. It's as nasty as saying he's lying.

Might as well call him Gordon Brown next.. really put the boot in

I on the other hand think that smoking at the wheel is dangerous. It should be illegal and if I had my way, it would be.

I smoked as a teenager for 6 months as an experiement.. and it makes you dizzy. I don't think being dizzy is a good thing when driving.

Apologies - but I don't feel that I should make any further comment of any kind.
I'd like to thank DG for his support.

[Saracen]

Respect goes both ways I'm affraid and that remark above is NOT showing Phage any respect at all in my opinion.

When someone tells me I'm "dissembling", they are essentially accusing me of lying and I'm not going to put up with it. I'm certainly not going to "show respect" to someone doing it, because they sure aren't showing me any.

Also, that warning is exactly the same type of warning as others have been issued when I'm not involved in the thread. The method is the same.

How is that not telling him to shut up though? He has basically in my opinion telling Phage, post something again that I don' agree with and you wont be posting again.

Don't get me wrong, I have respect for all the members of staff on this forum, but sometimes, especially during arguements/ discussions the admin boots should be left at the door and normal person should enter.

Experience tells me that when you try to warn people off gently, they push it and push it and end up getting banned, and I end up with a load of hassle, a load of abuse and a headache. I stepped down as an admin on these forums for a couple of years for precisely that reason.

So now I have a different policy.

When someone oversteps the line, they get a very clear warning. And phage just did. If they heed the warning, it's the end of the matter. If they ignore that warning, they get suspended, probably for 7 days. When they come back, it's the end of it .... unless they pick up where they left off. If they do, they get a longer suspension. And repeat. If they pick up in the same spot a third time, well, probably a permanent ban ... but I don't know because it's not happened yet. Offhand, I can't think of an occasion where the second suspension has been necessary because most people are bright enough to work out after the first time that I mean exactly what I say and that it will follow immediately.

As for leaving admin boots at the door, absolutely not. Admins (the Orange ones) are members first and admins second. We're not paid to do this job. It's simply a way of putting something back into the forums. Part of the requirement for mods is to be active on the forums and we're active precisely because we're involved, because we post.

What you're saying is that we can't be admins and be involved at the same time. Sorry, but the two functions are part of the same thing. If you want professional admins who take no part in the forums, then you have to give them some other motive for being on the forums. I post here because I want to, and accepted the post of admin to give something back.

I have faced this accusation of not being involved before, and had a long conversation with DR about it. In fact, though I didn't realise it, he rang me for over an hour .... from Taiwan. If it is a choice between posting and not being an admin, or being and admin and not posting, then I will choose posting and not being an admin. Being an admin is not fun. It's work, and a duty. It's one I'm happy to do, but would quite cheerfully do without. I do it to the best of my ability, and if that isn't good enough, I shouldn't be doing it. That involves being able to step back. DR's response was pretty simple, and you can deduce what it was from the fact that I'm still an admin.

Taking part in threads and functioning as an admin are utterly inseparable, at least to me. I can't and won't be an admin if the price is not being able to post.

How is that not telling him to shut up though? He has basically in my opinion telling Phage, post something again that I don' agree with and you wont be posting again.

No. I'm telling him that I'm not going to continue responding to straw man arguments, because it is a debating technique worthy of contempt. He's going no further with that because I'm going no further with responding to it. I've explained several times that what he says I said is not what I said, and asked him to substantiate his assertions of what I said, and all he's done is move to a different straw man. When that fails, he's moved to smartalec remarks and indirect insults, and "dissembling". So I'm forced to conclude he's doing it deliberately, probably to wind me up.

There has been a growing tendency on here recently for sharp and snippy remarks, for "clever" barbs, designed to be nasty without going so far as to break rules. I've warned quite a number of people over doing it, and will continue to do so. Phage trying it with me was not a good idea.

DR made it very clear in that call that he trusts my judgement. That's why he asked me (and the other admins) to do the job. As soon as he stops doing so, I assume he'd remove me. If I thought he'd lost faith, I'd remove myself. In the meantime, I do the job as I've been asked to do it, and that requires taking part in discussions as and when I choose to. The same applies when people moan about length of posts. Either I post as I want to or there's no point in being here to post. If I can't take part where I choose, and post as I choose, there's no point being here at all.

So, until such time as either the forum owners want me to stand down or I choose to quit, I'll both take part and do the admin job, and that means doing it as I see fit, not as you think is best. That. I'm afraid you'll have to put up with. And in case you're wondering, you're still not in any trouble with me. You're welcome to your opinion and to express it, even if you think I'm wrong. But I do things the way I do them as a result of mod'ding and admin'ing forums for about 10 years, and from running dialup Wildcat bulletin boards for about 10 years before that. I have a technique that works for me, and while you're welcome to your opinion, I'm not about to change because of it.

[Disturbedguy]

In all honest, I didnt read even a thrid of what you type because it could essentially be covered in a lot less text, wasting a lot less of both our time.

It was a debate/ discussions/ arguement, every tries to get one up one each othera nd at some point someone will more than likely be called a liar or be told something they dont like. If you dont like being told what you dont want to hear, then dont get into a debate/ discussion or arguement with that person.

What you're saying is that we can't be admins and be involved at the same time.

No I am not saying that, I am saying that sometimes some thought before posting is needed.

So, until such time as either the forum owners want me to stand down or I choose to quit, I'll both take part and do the admin job, and that means doing it as I see fit, not as you think is best. That. I'm afraid you'll have to put up with. And in case you're wondering, you're still not in any trouble with me. You're welcome to your opinion and to express it, even if you think I'm wrong. But I do things the way I do them as a result of mod'ding and admin'ing forums for about 10 years, and from running dialup Wildcat bulletin boards for about 10 years before that. I have a technique that works for me, and while you're welcome to your opinion, I'm not about to change because of it.

Ive not said anything about whether i thinks it best or not, I was tbh appaled at your attitude towards the situation and now so even more. In all honesty I couldn't care less if I were or weren't in trouble with you, I don't agree with the way you handled the situation and think it was un-needed.

If you werent going to respond to straw man arguements, then why come out with the warning that he will lose posting privileges if carries on? You could have simple not replied, or just stated that I wont be repsonding to straw man arugmenets, it would have been far simpler and far more diplomatic.

There has been a growing tendency on here recently for sharp and snippy remarks, for "clever" barbs, designed to be nasty without going so far as to break rules. I've warned quite a number of people over doing it, and will continue to do so. Phage trying it with me was not a good idea.

On this note, I have seen admins and mods do this and get away with it with seemingly no warning at all. I am not going to name names, but im sure if people sat and thought about it, they would see it to. It almost seems like one set of rules for one and one for the other, which shouldn't be the case, regardless of whether people are admins, mods or whatever.

[Disturbedguy]

nope.. he said call him a liar again(however it's worded) and we'll ban him. Me.. I'll do it.

This happens all over the forums, people being called a liar in one way or another, members dont get on there high horses about it, they just get on with it. Banning someone for calling you a 'liar' is going to far.

People have opinions and they are entitled to them as has been said repeatedly, but if someones opinion of someone is that they are a liar, then they are entitled to make his or her feelings clear towards that person, however they say it.

[Nick]

Erm, no, they're not.

Making their feeling towards someone known could very likely result in an insult... and insulting other members is a clear breach of the rules.

For example only: DisturbedGuy, my opinion is that your grasp and understanding of basic English grammar can only be compared to that of a concussed monkey. A drunken dyslexic one at that.

Now, I wish to make it very, VERY clear that I am using that as an example only and I'm actually not that bothered by your spelling and grammar, I'm not UCAS for a start

But the point is to demonstrate that giving your opinion about someone isn't an inherent right for the very reason that you'll likely end up insulting them.

The streets would be full of fighting if we all walked around believing we were entitled to voice our opinions about people.

Edit for musings on this: My point is, by all means, give an opinion about an idea or a thing or whatever, but don't think that you can tell someone what you think of them without getting some sort of rebuke in return.

It just so happens that Saracen is an admin here. It's a given that if he were just a member, he'd be hitting the report post button and we'd still be giving Phage a slap on the wrist. The only difference here is that the guy giving out the warning happens to be the guy who was affronted in the first place.

It's a bit like moaning to the booking sergeant that the copper arresting you is the one you slapped... and how that's not a fair fight as he's a copper... Regardless of that person's standing, it's still wrong.

[TooNice]

Are we better off it though?

Liar!
No, you are the liar!
No, you are!
[Etc.]

'Within the rule sniping remarks' is something I wouldn't mind seeing less of on Hexus (I've been thinking of taking some time out because I feel that my *own* posts have degraded at time, when I try hard not to). Not sure if it's because we get more topics people feel strongly about, but there is still I think we'd all be better off without it. That's my two pence worth, I am out (don't mean to add fuel to the fire).

[Disturbedguy]

My spelling and grammar fail, I know it .

I give up. I made my point and stand by it.

Members shouldnt have to sit and proof read what they say just incase they hurt someones feelings.

[LWA]

For anyone who read this thread and thought I'm not entirely sure what that word means: (I.e. Me).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dissemblers

[peterb]

[QUOTE=Disturbedguy;1897801]This happens all over the forums, people being called a liar in one way or another, members dont get on there high horses about it, they just get on with it. Banning someone for calling you a 'liar' is going to far.[QUOTE]

Can you point me in the direction of some posts on these forums where someone has been accused of lying - without providing justification for the accusation?

People have opinions and they are entitled to them as has been said repeatedly, but if someones opinion of someone is that they are a liar, then they are entitled to make his or her feelings clear towards that person, however they say it.

To lie is to represent as truth, something that you know to be a untrue. An opinion may be formed on the bais of facts that are untrue, but if the person doesn't kow that the fact is untrue, while his opoinion may be flawed, thsat doesn't make the person a liar. However before making an opinion, a prudent person will try to determine the validity of the facts that form his opinion.

Saracen's posts are always well researched - and his opinions based on facts that he has verified, or with a justification that lead to his voicing an opinion. If more members followed his example, we might avoid some of the petty spats that have marred the forums in the last few weeks.

And if phage has any evidence that Saracen has lied, then he is welcome to post it - but it had better be good and it had better be watertight.

And it is a shame you didn't take the time to read Saracen's posts in their entirety, because if you had, you would understand why his opinions are so well respected and why phage is considered to have (uncharacteristically) stepped over the line.

[Disturbedguy]

I didnt read his post as to be honest, im at work and trying to avoid the managers gaze.

Either way, like I said, i give up. One mod or admin gets told he is wrong in someones opinion and the rest jump in shooting that person down.

[abaxas]

[QUOTE=peterb;1897822]

To lie is to represent as truth, something that you know to be a untrue. An opinion may be formed on the bais of facts that are untrue, but if the person doesn't kow that the fact is untrue, while his opoinion may be flawed, thsat doesn't make the person a liar. However before making an opinion, a prudent person will try to determine the validity of the facts that form his opinion.

.

ERR ORR (Family Fortunes noise)

A liar is someone who says something untrue, it doesnt matter if they meant to or not. If they know they have lied, this it is a conspiricy to lie.

IE the words 'lie' or 'liar' simply mean saying something untrue.

[Nick]

My spelling and grammar fail, I know it .

I give up. I made my point and stand by it.

Members shouldnt have to sit and proof read what they say just incase they hurt someones feelings.

Dude, please read the whole of my post.

I, and everyone else here, don't want anyone to feel like they can't post just because their grammar is a bit poor... good lord, I'm hardly a shining beacon myself.

But that wasn't my point anyway, it was about voicing and defending an opinion about a thing/idea versus giving an opinion on a member of the forums.

There is a difference... the former is fine, the latter isn't as 99% of the time, you're going to insult them.

Here's another example... years ago, like, 7 or 8 years ago, I wished all the girls on the forum a Happy Valentines... not knowing that Sara was an abbreviation for Saracen

He took it in good humour but he could've equally gotten snotty with me on it... so even when you're trying to be nice it can go very wrong.

[Disturbedguy]

Dude, please read the whole of my post.

I, and everyone else here, don't want anyone to feel like they can't post just because their grammar is a bit poor... good lord, I'm hardly a shining beacon myself.

But that wasn't my point anyway, it was about voicing and defending an opinion about a thing/idea versus giving an opinion on a member of the forums.

There is a difference... the former is fine, the latter isn't as 99% of the time, you're going to insult them.

Here's another example... years ago, like, 7 or 8 years ago, I wished all the girls on the forum a Happy Valentines... not knowing that Sara was an abbreviation for Saracen

He took it in good humour but he could've equally gotten snotty with me on it... so even when you're trying to be nice it can go very wrong.

Nick, my comment about proof reading was not aimed at what you said.

My spelling and grammar fail, I know it .

- Was making light of the situation in regards to my spelling and such.

The proof reading comment was in general and wasnt aimed at anyone in particular.

So apologies if it seemed like my comment was aimed at yourself.