Race relations & Immigration in the UK...What should we do?

[usxhe190]

One thing we (as a country) do need, and badly, is a conversation about this, and preferably an adult one that doesn't involve being called a bigot behind your back, just for mentioning it.

But seriously, the people who usually bring up immigration isn't really thinking about the UK as having too much people.

Those people are just more worried about a particular race (e.g. Eastern Europeans) coming over and blame them for all their wrongs.

If it was "really" about immigration (i.e. how much people in this country), they would be screaming about overdevelopment in cities or countys as well because that is one consequence of immigration (i.e. having more people) - but they don't. They are more worried about the foreign faces they see when they are down at the local shops.

And therefore all the parties have stupid policies.

[TooNice]

Also they better not moan when we can't get latest gadgets quickly or cheaply and everything seems to cost a lot more in UK than in other countries etc etc.

To be honest, most things cost a lot more already. How much worse can it get

[usxhe190]

To be honest, most things cost a lot more already. How much worse can it get

I am not saying UK's cost of living is low but UK has a LOT of cheap (not just imported) goods & services compared to many European countries (e.g. our Nordic friends).

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

To be honest, most things cost a lot more already. How much worse can it get

Electronics in the UK are relatively cheap compared to quite a few European countries.

[Blitzen]

What road? :s Do you mean the state of their motorways etc? How can you link that back to the EU?

I meant roads.

[Saracen]

It's rare for me ask an expansion from Saracen, but could you please do on the above point? Is the earned route to citizenship not simply a set of rules required by non-citizen (but legal migrants) in order to become citizen in this country?

No, it isn't I'm afraid.

Their point on this "earned route" is about illegal immigrants, not legal ones.

The logic seems to be as follows - there are a lot of people that have been here, hiding under the radar, for a long time. Their stance puts what they portray as pragmatism ahead of principle. They say that as these people have been here a long time, have remained hidden and have ties, perhaps kids, then let them stay. Let them have an amnesty. Regularise them. Bring them into the system, get them paying tax, and so on.

And I can see the point.

But, its an amnesty by another name. It's a filtered one in that they put conditions on it, such as it only applying to people here for more than 10 years, and with no criminal record, and that speak English, and that arrived before 2010. But it's still an amnesty.

What it says is that if you buck the system and break the law to get here and stay here, and get away with it for long enough, the system will rewards you. And I regard that as simply wrong. Apart from anything else, it's an affront to those that do abide by the system and do things the right way.


I have no problem at all with those here legally on work permits having a route to citizenship. In fact, it'd be daft not to have a route to do that. Many countries have systems that allow people to remain legally within the law, and that if they then meet the conditions of their immigration, become citizens after a time period elapses and if you meet the criteria (like language skills, passing a "citizenshop exam", taking an oath, etc. The USA does, Australia does and as I understand it, so do we. That's fine. It's the distinction between getting a work permit, a "green card" in the US, and being a citizen .... and the two are not the same thing at all. But the LibDem "earned route" policy is about illegal immigrants, or "irregulars" as some LiDem candidates call them. Or as the LD manifesto puts it, "here without correct papers". Page 76

[Saracen]

But seriously, the people who usually bring up immigration isn't really thinking about the UK as having too much people.

Those people are just more worried about a particular race (e.g. Eastern Europeans) coming over and blame them for all their wrongs.

If it was "really" about immigration (i.e. how much people in this country), they would be screaming about overdevelopment in cities or countys as well because that is one consequence of immigration (i.e. having more people) - but they don't. They are more worried about the foreign faces they see when they are down at the local shops.

And therefore all the parties have stupid policies.

And you know that how? Everyone who brings up immigration is a closet racist? That attitude is part of the problem.

Immigration is a two-edged sword. It has advantages, and some of them are whopping great advantages. But it has drawbacks too.

Advantages include recruiting for understaffing of qualified people in, oh, the NHS. Disadvantages include pressure on local services, like schools, housing, transportation systems, and so on.

That's why immigration is not just a mask for closet racism. It is a fact of life, and no bad thing but, like almost anything, what's good in reasonable quantities is bad in excess. Despite out current woes, the UK is still a very wealthy country, especially compared to some of the less desirable places to be born. But we are an island, we do have limits on services and we can't simply throw the doors open. There has to be a limit somewhere, and the questions that arise directly from that are :-

- how many do we let in,
- how do we pick who to accept and who to reject.

I'm sure there are racists for whom the issue is those "foreign faces", but to suggest that everyone concerned about immigration is merely concerned about "foreign faces" is unsupportable.

[TooNice]

Ah, I just read the Lib-Dem policy briefing on immigration, and it is as you say. Until quite recently (1 year? Maybe 2 - basically prior the point system) Labour had a similar system for people who've lived here for 14 years (which I found puzzling). The 10 years rule was for people who stayed here legitimately hence my confusion. Both route to settlement are no longer available (replaced by the current point system).

Pragmatically though, what would best for the economy?
- Putting additional resources to more actively seek and deport illegal immigrants.
- Status-quo
- The Amnesty the Lib-Dem are proposing (keeping in mind the tax it would bring).

[pp05]

I think we need a new approach. One that doesn't see people coming to the UK as 'the others'.

What we have had has been pretty much the same for the last 30 years. Politicians know how to play the patriotic act at election time whilst at the same time not telling us they are powerless against EU/global forces because then we would rightly be asking..whats the point of all this election hoo-haa..