Student protests - the students are awful arn't they?

[Blitzen]

Can't tell if you're a brilliant troll or an enthusiastic fascist.

So because i don't agree with these bloody morons smashing up anything they get near, i am a fascist or a troll.

For crying out loud.......you cannot be as bad as them surely.

[format]

So because i don't agree with these bloody morons smashing up anything they get near, i am a fascist or a troll.

For crying out loud.......you cannot be as bad as them surely.

No respect for free speech - check
Criticism of state forbidden - check
Crush opposition to the state by any means necessary - check
Huge proponent of the military - check
Glorification of security forces - check


You're not a fascist because you don't agree with 'these bloody morons'. You're a fascist because you want them brutally executed for expressing an opinion.

[peterb]

Well, I'm not sure the attributes you associate with Fascism are peculiar to that group.

I don't recall freedom of speech or freedom to criticize the state being the defining hallmarks of the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba etc, all embraced the crushing of opposition to the State by any means (literally in Tienanmen Square) all (with the exception of Cuba) were hugely Militaristic and glorified their security services to instil fear on any opponents to the regime.

That aside, please keep the name calling out of the discussion please. You might think that Blitzen expounds fascist views, but on the evidence you presented, you could just as easily claim he is a communist!

I don't have a view either way (about Blitzen - or you) so long as views expressed are done so in a way that avoids personal attack on another member.

To ensure there is no misunderstanding:

I will defend your right to express yourself as a valued HEXUS member as long as you remember that with rights come responsibilities - which in the HEXUS forums includes the avoidance of name calling, tor any other language or post that could bring HEXUS under the legal microscope.

And this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but at ALL HEXUS posters

If you wish to discuss this further, please PM me.

[educatedfool]

The ballot box is the best response if the decisions of the Government of the day are not to your liking.

You may vote for a different government but you'll still get a bunch of liars.

[santa claus]

You may vote for a different government but you'll still get a bunch of liars.

Perhaps. But the 'best' class of liar is of the written pledge kind don't you think? We've become accustomed to reading between the lines of what politicians say, but broken, written-in-black-and-white pledges that had been proclaimed in a blaze of triumphant publicity are a new low. I'm afraid ol' Foghorn Clegghorn has cooked his goose well before christmas.

O what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

[TheAnimus]

but broken, written-in-black-and-white pledges that had been proclaimed in a blaze of triumphant publicity are a new low.

Can't really call it new, when the precidence has been set by the last lot... twice.

It is very easy to see why people get disalusioned with voting, the last lot have maxed out our credit line and given us very little to show for it, that is unless of course your one of the rich labour party friends who are the real winners on the government contracts. Its the whole x Billion spent on NHS thing, rather than actually quoting the improvements because they erm didn't really happen nearly enough to justify the cost, perhaps due to chronicly bad management and constant changing of the middle management.

Then the next lot come in, this time its more complex, you've got those who voted lib dems. If someone reads the Grauniad, well they often don't realise quite how stupid they are, sun readers do, they just vote which ever way they are told so they can get back on with looking at the big tits, but those ******s who voted lib dem and then act all suprised afterwards. Their policies seemed diametrically opposed a heck of a lot of the time, my favourate been the charge VAT on new build housing, oh yes theres a shortage of housing, lets make it HARDER to build more..... Be disalusioned, vote for 'the third force' just at least try and get to know the devil.

Then you've got these new merchants of spin, they've taken something I really hated about Blairisim, and carried it onwards.

The problem here, with this issue is that its not really that bad. Talk to all those people who paid out of their own pocket to be trained to do the HIPs only to have the rug pulled out from under them by the next government. All those schemes which have been (nesicerrally?) axed, resulting in a massive lifestyle shock to plenty of people.

Saying that, someone who will earn, on average an extra £150k, will have to sacrifice about 11% more of that then they did before for the priviledge isn't really a problem.

The worry is that we are going FURTHER down the road to cost been the determining factor in what university someone can go to, rather than just merrit. This was started by Labour, and made worse by the Libs and the Tories.

To me, this is the issue, not the fact some people are going to have a loan they never repay until their on £20k.

[SeriousSam]

At the end of the day I don't see why our tax money should be wasted on fudging the unemployment figures by having lots of University students. However, the real issue here is that everything that is being done now and has been done for at least the past 20years are just "band aid" fixes. Until we realise that this situation is serious and start putting together a long term plan, and I don't just mean the next five years, the situation is only going to get worse.

[Blitzen]

No respect for free speech - check
Criticism of state forbidden - check
Crush opposition to the state by any means necessary - check
Huge proponent of the military - check
Glorification of security forces - check


You're not a fascist because you don't agree with 'these bloody morons'. You're a fascist because you want them brutally executed for expressing an opinion.

No respect for free speech - check - Free speech does not constitute smashing a city up (so you are wrong)

Criticism of state forbidden - check - Once again. Criticism isn't the issue. Acting like a football hooligan is the issue (you are wrong again)

Crush opposition to the state by any means necessary - check - Crushing the opposition with force which was started by a so called 'protest'. How else were the police supposed to stop these fools on their rampage? (you are also wrong)

Huge proponent of the military - check - I was in the military for a good number of years. So yes, although, once again this has nothing to do with the current debate.(wrong again, as you obviously know very little about it)

Glorification of security forces - check - Makes absolutely no sense at all.

If you could actually justify anything you have said, you may have a point, but you either can't or won't.

[Blitzen]

Well, I'm not sure the attributes you associate with Fascism are peculiar to that group.

I don't recall freedom of speech or freedom to criticize the state being the defining hallmarks of the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba etc, all embraced the crushing of opposition to the State by any means (literally in Tienanmen Square) all (with the exception of Cuba) were hugely Militaristic and glorified their security services to instil fear on any opponents to the regime.

That aside, please keep the name calling out of the discussion please. You might think that Blitzen expounds fascist views, but on the evidence you presented, you could just as easily claim he is a communist!

I don't have a view either way (about Blitzen - or you) so long as views expressed are done so in a way that avoids personal attack on another member.

To ensure there is no misunderstanding:

I will defend your right to express yourself as a valued HEXUS member as long as you remember that with rights come responsibilities - which in the HEXUS forums includes the avoidance of name calling, tor any other language or post that could bring HEXUS under the legal microscope.

And this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but at ALL HEXUS posters

If you wish to discuss this further, please PM me.

Peter.
I know you are trying to defend the values of Hexus, but i am not bothered what Format decides to call me.
The fact that his/her arguments are that weak, indicates that resulting in name calling is all he left to offer as an argument.

I will abide by the rules though (although i haven't broken them)

[format]

Blitzen you expressed the desire to see innocent civilians gunned down in cold blood for expressing their discontent at their government.

I'll happily continue to take part in this thread (if it stays on topic) but I don't feel I have to argue to moral highground with someone who blithely advocates mass murder


Unless you weren't being serious of course...

[SeriousSam]

Blitzen you expressed the desire to see innocent civilians gunned down in cold blood for expressing their discontent at their government.

I'll happily continue to take part in this thread (if it stays on topic) but I don't feel I have to argue to moral highground with someone who blithely advocates mass murder

Perhaps if you climbed down off your Equus Asinus and learned some english comprehension then you might be able to grasp the concept that Blitzen wasn't advocating mass murder.

[TooNice]

Hey maybe we should just go the whole hog and massacre the students with guns - Tienanmen style!

Good idea [...]

^ Reading comprehension does not not usually cover the use of smilies

TBH, it's not the best smilie to use to indicate that one is joking*. IF he is on that point that is. It might be the sensible thing to assume so, but I've found Blitzen to have strong, controversial views on many things so I am only partly sure he is pulling format's leg with that statement.

In keep in mind that I am not exactly on the same page as format in this discussion. If I was, my perception of Blitzen at that moment would've been lower, and I may even want to believe / find it more plausible that he is a nutter who advocate the mass murder of protesting students.

IMHO, it wasn't the right moment (middle of a heated debate) to throw something remotely ambiguous/misinterpretable and as controversial as that. And if it was done solely to stir format, then it fall into my definition of flamebait.

*I have a bit of an issue with that smilie in this forum. It should only be a smilie face in the first place, but here, it is a nod, as if in agreement.

[Macman]

No respect for free speech - check - Free speech does not constitute smashing a city up (so you are wrong)

Criticism of state forbidden - check - Once again. Criticism isn't the issue. Acting like a football hooligan is the issue (you are wrong again)

Crush opposition to the state by any means necessary - check - Crushing the opposition with force which was started by a so called 'protest'. How else were the police supposed to stop these fools on their rampage? (you are also wrong)

Huge proponent of the military - check - I was in the military for a good number of years. So yes, although, once again this has nothing to do with the current debate.(wrong again, as you obviously know very little about it)

Glorification of security forces - check - Makes absolutely no sense at all.

If you could actually justify anything you have said, you may have a point, but you either can't or won't.

+1

What strikes me... it's the Taxpayers who's footing the bill for all the repairs etc.

I totally understand the students reasoning for protesting, but rather annoyed about the behaviour. But then again, the ones causing the violence may not necessarily be even students.

I just hope that this matter is resolved soon, because if this esculates, how far are they willing to go? (Always gotta look at the bigger picture)

[TooNice]

In terms of direct impact, the protests affects me more than most (I live near where some of the demonstration take place). Overall though, I don't find them nearly as annoying as RM, BA, Tube strikes. How many events so far turned violent?

[santa claus]

Can't really call it new, when the precidence has been set by the last lot... twice etc.....

I think it's time to let go of the 'Labour is to blame for everything' mantra. We have a new Government (and I want it to succeed) and it has to take responsibility for today, never mind who did what in the past. Oh, and it's been a long time since merit counted for anything in our it's-not-what-you-know-it's-who-you-know-society. It's our biggest weakness imho.

The only libdem I ever had time for was Mr Paddy Pantsdown (God bless The Sun!) who brought a new meaning to 'going commando'. The self-proclaimed messiah Vince Cable had more to say about how to put things right until, to his probable astonishment, he found himself in authority and with Mr Clegg tainted, their whole shebang is down The Swanee.

My guess is they'll drag the Tories down with them.

[Saracen]

I think it's time to let go of the 'Labour is to blame for everything' mantra. We have a new Government (and I want it to succeed) and it has to take responsibility for today, never mind who did what in the past. ....

I agree with that to a point, but only to a point.

We tend to have a blame society, but for that to be reasonable, we need to understand how we got where we are, and who got us here. We can't completely isolate any current economic policy from the factors that led to that policy. And when you look at the factors that led to the need for the current economic policy, it comes down to addressing the debt, or at the very least, the deficit because even the Tories cuts won't actually cut national debt, just the deficit, even if they work as intended.

Who is responsible for the debt, though? That's trickier. In part, inevitably, it's Labour. They were in power, controlled the spending and set policies for, what, 13 years.

But in part, it's the worldwide crisis, and though Labour certainly failed to see that coming, there's little to no evidence that the Tories saw it coming either. They might well have spent less and be in less of a mess than Labour, but it'd have more to do with ideology than economic prescience.

So .... the current cuts are going to be painful. Very, very painful. But, had Labour won the election, they'd be cutting too. Not as far, perhaps, and not as fast, perhaps. But they'd have the same deficit to address as the current government, and if you cut less the only logical conclusion, with one caveat, is that it'll take longer to eliminate the deficit, and if you cut the deficit slower, it is absolutely inevitable that national debt would be bigger.

The caveat is what effect what level of cuts have on growth? One way to look at it is that greater cuts choke growth, and that the recovery will be slower. And that's very likely true. It's certainly Labour's argument. The other way to look at it is that cutting harder and having a very clear plan to eliminate the deficit restored faith of the markets in our sovereign being safe, and that kept interest rates low, which in turn encourages investment and growth. And, in essence, that's the Tory argument.

But however you cut it, we are where we are, we do have the problems we have, and to the extent that British politicians caused it, which is to a considerable extent but by no means exclusively, it was Labour and wasn't the Tories. We can't blame the Tories for the state of the nations finances, and the medicine we're now facing is only necessary because of the mess Labour left.

So while that "blame mantra" might be getting boring, it's nonetheless true, and politically, it's necessary to keep reminding people of it. Whether Labour caused the mess by their actions, or allowed it by inaction, or merely sat and had it wash over them, it is undeniably true that the country is in a mess and it's not one of Tory making - it was inherited from Labour. Given 13 years in power, that is inevitably the case.