Student protests - the students are awful arn't they?

[Saracen]

....

My guess is they'll drag the Tories down with them.

An awful lot depends on how hard the cuts are felt, what percentage of people really feel them, and what happens to the economy over the next several years. That's one reason for drumming the "Labour mess" message home. Most people are realistic about the state of the mess, and know sorting it is going to be unpleasant. If, though, despite Labour's predictions of disaster from the cuts and warnings of double-dip, the economy does well, or at least, better than expected, if growth is decent and at least as good as our main competitors, if jobs recover, then the mantra for the next election will be to compare that recovery with the "Labour mess we inherited".

If that happens with the economy, it could well be that both Tories and LD's get the credit. If it doesn't go that well, though, I'd bet the Tories use the LDs as a scapegoat, because 'those horrible LDs restrained the medicine that was really needed, etc.'

We always need to remember that politics is never about the diehards on either end of the political spectrum. It's not about left wing Labour (or LD), or about right wing Tories. It's always about the floaters in the middle, and how many of them any party can convince. And by defintion, as floaters, they're convinceable.

[Fraz]

Gotta say, Format is doing a great job against a surprising amount of anti-student sentiment in this thread. I haven't read the whole thread (edit, I have now), but Blitzen is coming across as a classic Daily Mail reader, frankly, and I certainly don't mean that as a compliment.

Were not most of you students at one time or another? I personally thought the police behaviour was pretty awful in that video, and I'm shocked others such as Saracen think otherwise - it's almost like you're not watching the same video. And there were plenty of eye-witnesses in the accompanying article who are quoted saying the crowd was charged by officers on horseback.

The police have got a long history of some absolutely disgusting tactics and actions, and I'm very surprised that the majority of this thread seem to think that the police are above such actions. Did you not see the G20 Climate Camp video, for instance?!

People have a right to protest, and there was no need to move the protesters on, and yet the police apparently claim to "know nothing about the protest", thus giving them the right to disperse the static demonstration. I've seen this behaviour first hand, when my girlfriend organised a protest (nothing to do with this protest issue). She spent SO MUCH EFFORT on the phone informing the police that there was going to be protest, and yet when the police turned up they all claimed to know nothing about it (errr, so how come you're all here then? ), and moved everyone on claiming that the demonstration was illegal. It's a very cynical tactic. Next time she organises a protest she will have to record all the phone calls and request written evidence of permission in order to show the front-line officers.

Also, @peterb, "Can't tell if you're a brilliant troll or an enthusiastic fascist" - that constitutes name calling?! Obviously you're the mod, and I'm not, but I thought that was quite a polite response based on the things that Blitzen was suggesting. Frankly I think it's Blitzen who needs a slap on the wrist, not Format.

[Robscure]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/no...-horses-charge

Just find it ironic after all the criticism - note that I do not condone violence on either side, but was this self defence?

Also denying it happened until this video came out? More blatant lies from the powers that be?

This doesn't bode well for the BNP

Foreigners have been paying these prices for years and they never protested like this, as far as I'm aware lol

[format]

Perhaps if you climbed down off your Equus Asinus and learned some english comprehension then you might be able to grasp the concept that Blitzen wasn't advocating mass murder.

I suppose you missed my 'srs or troll' caveat.

The topic in this thread had been relatively serious until now, so when Blitzen posted what he did, I asked him - are you being serious or are you just being controversial to get a reaction out of me (ie, trolling).

So, perhaps if you read the thread, you'd be able to grasp that I had asked Blitzen to clarify his position. He neither confirmed nor denied it, but continued to argue down the same path that he had before.

[Macman]

To be honest..

The protesters are as bad as the police.

Protesters caused havoc in Londons City Centre, and certain video evidence, you clearly see Police standing and watching and not stopping the said individualfor obvious reasons.

Police have used tatics which were abit OTT, but then again you have seen Protesters hostile actions which were TOTALLY uncalled for.

I was never a student, I left school and looked for a job, luckily got into one and have been working ever since, and I started when I was 15. And don't get me wrong, I actually hate the police with a passion for various personal reasons.

PROTESTERS are in the WRONG
POLICE are in the WRONG

GOVERNMENT ARE THE MAJOR ***K-UPS

- Rant Over

[format]

To be honest..

The protesters are as bad as the police.

Protesters caused havoc in Londons City Centre, and certain video evidence, you clearly see Police standing and watching and not stopping the said individualfor obvious reasons.

Police have used tatics which were abit OTT, but then again you have seen Protesters hostile actions which were TOTALLY uncalled for.

I was never a student, I left school and looked for a job, luckily got into one and have been working ever since, and I started when I was 15. And don't get me wrong, I actually hate the police with a passion for various personal reasons.

PROTESTERS are in the WRONG
POLICE are in the WRONG

GOVERNMENT ARE THE MAJOR ***K-UPS

- Rant Over

In this incident specifically though, the protesters had done nothing wrong. Like I said previously, it's not fair to judge all protesters by the actions of a few.

[Macman]

In this incident specifically though, the protesters had done nothing wrong. Like I said previously, it's not fair to judge all protesters by the actions of a few.

In my opinion that is irrelevant.

The Police cannot predict if the said 'few' will then rise to the 'majority' as the Police's job is to contain the situation.

I for one being in the neutral side, the Police Charge was a bit harsh but the Police have to do what they can to control a situation.

[format]

In my opinion that is irrelevant.

The Police cannot predict if the said 'few' will then rise to the 'majority' as the Police's job is to contain the situation.

I for one being in the neutral side, the Police Charge was a bit harsh but the Police have to do what they can to control a situation.

But the situation didn't need contained. It was a stationary protest that was fully legitimate. They had every right to be there.
It could be argued that the police's reaction did more to create a situation by inciting a reaction from the crowd. You can clearly hear the change in tone after the horses move in.

[Macman]

But the situation didn't need contained. It was a stationary protest that was fully legitimate. They had every right to be there.
It could be argued that the police's reaction did more to create a situation by inciting a reaction from the crowd. You can clearly hear the change in tone after the horses move in.

I'm not so sure about that one, I think one had to be there.

But at the end of the day they were as bad as each other. What now needs to happen is the bloody government need to stop faffing about and resolve it. (I know its not just a case of, 'Right Lads lets vote')

I honestly feel sorry for genuine students who are hit hard with fees... Our young folk at School/College/Uni are our future and the govenment has to do what it can to support them.

[SeriousSam]

I suppose you missed my 'srs or troll' caveat.

The topic in this thread had been relatively serious until now, so when Blitzen posted what he did, I asked him - are you being serious or are you just being controversial to get a reaction out of me (ie, trolling).

So, perhaps if you read the thread, you'd be able to grasp that I had asked Blitzen to clarify his position. He neither confirmed nor denied it, but continued to argue down the same path that he had before.

Actually your initial response was

Hey maybe we should just go the whole hog and massacre the students with guns - Tienanmen style!

which is hardly a reasoned reply asking Blitzen to clarify his point is it?

Now I'll not deny that his next comment was questionable as it wasn't clear if he was using humour or not. However, rather than pulling him up on that in a constructive manner you resorted to "Troll or Facist". So to get back to the real point of my previous post... People who sit on their high horses pontificating generally just look like "asses" to the rest of us as we see no difference between them and the people with whom they are arguing (and I don't mean intelligent discourse).

In regards to the protests themselves then I'm sure most of the students were there to voice their dissaproval of the increase in fees. Perhaps some of them were deluded enough to think it would make a difference. Not since the Poll Tax riots has it made a difference in this country and even then the bigger influence was probably the fact that virtually everyone was against it (98-99% in opinion polls). The only real way to effect change in the modern political landscape is to enter into dialogue with a positive and credible alternative to the proposals being put forward.

I do have a small amount of sympathy for students in regards to their having to pay for someones profligacy, especially as until they were 18 they had no say in who was governing them. However, they do seem to forget that the rest of us have had to pay far more in increased taxes the past 13years to partly shore up that same profligate spending. In the end life isn't fair, nor will it ever be... learn to accept that and move on.

[chuckskull]

Sure this will be interesting for many here, http://www.channel4.com/programmes/coppers/4od#3142078

Docu about policing a riot. Whole series is worth a watch tbh.

[PC4Free]

Sure this will be interesting for many here, http://www.channel4.com/programmes/coppers/4od#3142078

Docu about policing a riot. Whole series is worth a watch tbh.

I saw that, with the EDL?
Yeah the series is pretty good. Did you see that crazy guy rapping in prison

Has anyone seen the video of the police charging protesters on horses

[petercook7]

what really gets me we have been told we are all in this together, yet lord and mps expenses havent been cut, their wages havent been cut along with other bits, yet they keep bring out new ways to hurt the population financially.

[format]

Actually your initial response was which is hardly a reasoned reply asking Blitzen to clarify his point is it?

The difference is that my point about using guns was clearly sarcasm - it would hardly follow for me to defend the students for 3 or 4 pages and then suddenly say that we should shoot them.

Now I'll not deny that his next comment was questionable as it wasn't clear if he was using humour or not. However, rather than pulling him up on that in a constructive manner you resorted to "Troll or Facist". So to get back to the real point of my previous post... People who sit on their high horses pontificating generally just look like "asses" to the rest of us as we see no difference between them and the people with whom they are arguing (and I don't mean intelligent discourse).

Amusing that you call me out about pontificating by using latin.

Besides, if chiding someone about their approval of the slaughter of innocents is pontificating, then fine. But I'm not sure why you think I was wrong to have a go at Blitzen for saying what he said, whether that be the original 'roll over them with tanks' comment or the latter comment.

In regards to the protests themselves then I'm sure most of the students were there to voice their dissaproval of the increase in fees. Perhaps some of them were deluded enough to think it would make a difference. Not since the Poll Tax riots has it made a difference in this country and even then the bigger influence was probably the fact that virtually everyone was against it (98-99% in opinion polls). The only real way to effect change in the modern political landscape is to enter into dialogue with a positive and credible alternative to the proposals being put forward.

I do have a small amount of sympathy for students in regards to their having to pay for someones profligacy, especially as until they were 18 they had no say in who was governing them. However, they do seem to forget that the rest of us have had to pay far more in increased taxes the past 13years to partly shore up that same profligate spending. In the end life isn't fair, nor will it ever be... learn to accept that and move on.

'Mass protests are useless, give up and go home'

Sorry, I don't buy that. At the very least people have to try and protest. Trying and failing is better than not trying at all.

[Saracen]

....

Were not most of you students at one time or another? I personally thought the police behaviour was pretty awful in that video, and I'm shocked others such as Saracen think otherwise - it's almost like you're not watching the same video. And there were plenty of eye-witnesses in the accompanying article who are quoted saying the crowd was charged by officers on horseback.

The police have got a long history of some absolutely disgusting tactics and actions, and I'm very surprised that the majority of this thread seem to think that the police are above such actions. Did you not see the G20 Climate Camp video, for instance?!....

Well, is this a criticism of police action in that specific video/incident, or their action generally? If it's in that incident, the G20 stuff is irrelevant. And I had also said that some of their actions in the G20 protests were disgraceful, not least, not wearing mandatory ID numbers, and of course, the Ian Tomlinson incident. But the actions of officers at the G20 doesn't affect what happened, or appears to have happened, in that incident.

Are you aware that eye-witness accounts, even of demonstrably impartial bystanders, are notoriously unreliable? We do not see as a video camera sees. We see what the brain sees, and it does a fair bit of interpreting it in the process. Different eye witnesses can witness exactly the same incident and give very different accounts of what happened. And that's assuming complete impartiality.

And then there's that video of the "charging". There's two problems with that. First is the definition of a"charge", and what various people mean by it. Second is exactly what that video shows. The video shows horses moving forwards at a reasonable speed, but what you simply can't see one way or the other, is whether they were moving forwards into a group of people, or simply towards a group of people, but actually intro open space. Due to the camera angle, we can see horses moving the far side of a group of people, but for all we know, the horses were one side of a barrier and the crown the other, or the horses were moving into space opened up when the police line moved to allow them through.

Think about how big and powerful a horse is, even a dainty racehorse. And the police don't use racehorses. If a group of half a dozen mounted officers had charged into that crowd, I'd expect at the very least a large number of people with serious injuries, broken bones, and quite possibly, a few bodies. Did we get that? If we did, it's been kept out of the media very effectively.

And what is a "charge"? Horses moving at a trot? At a canter? Or, in the traditional sense, charging full-tilt, as in a standard cavalry charge? If it was the latter, we'd be counting the bodies.

I am not saying the police didn't "charge". I'm saying that from the evidence we have we simply don't know, and I see nothing in that video that convinces me they did anything remotely resembling how I'd define a charge. They sure moved forward, and I'm sure it was intimidating to see them coming at you. And I'm equally sure that was exactly the objective of the exercise. It seems to have worked, too. So I'm not prepared to condemn then for something I don't know they did.


And as for

Were not most of you students at one time or another?

is that supposed to mean we should automatically support whatever current students do, for whatever purposes they do it? I think not.

For clarity, I have no problem with students protesting peacefully. They have every right to do so. I don't agree with the grounds for the protest and I will not support heir cause, but they have a right to protest peacefully. But .... with any protest, there are limits. As soon as you get a large number of people "protesting" in this way, you're preventing ordinary people going about their business in their normal manner. And there is always the risk of incidents, or flare-ups, or outbursts of violence against people or property or indeed, of outright riot. The police have a job to do, and it involves drawing a balance, and in allowing peaceful, legal protest, but also in preventing illegalities, in a potentially explosive situation.

We don't know what led to the use of horses. If the police had issued legally valid instructions to dispersed, for instance, and been ignored, and if they had reason to believe trouble was brewing or had even started, then they'd be obliged to take stops to restore order. And that may lead to the uses of horses.

None of this is shown by that video, so even what it does show, and that is very limited, is absent context.

Next, eye-witness accounts. Leaving aside how unreliable even impartial accounts may be, we don't know how impartial those "plenty of eye-witnesses" are. Even ignoring whether "charge" is an accurate term of not, we don't know if some or all of those eye-witnesses were either, as seems rather likely, protesting students, or even politically motivated agitators.

And I'm not saying protesting students would lie outright (or that they wouldn't), but if they are protesters, then they are likely to be frustrated by police action and their comments are likely to be, at the least, emotionally charged, not calm and impartial.

I see nothing in that video about police action that shocks me, not least because we don't know the rest of the circumstances. A large crown of people could be anything from a queue waiting to get into a football match, to violent protesters (or worse) trying to smash up a building or burn a police van. The actions that would be justified by the police depend very much on what they're dealing with. I do expect the police to behave lawfully (and at the G20 protests, I've seen enough to be convinced a number did not), but what that lawful action is depends entirely on exactly what was happening on the ground at the time, and that video does not show that.

I'm not saying the police action was lawful, or justified or reasonable. I'm saying that that video doesn't show enough to convince me either way, so I simply refuse to jump to conclusions either way. If that shocks you, you don't know me very well.

Put it this way. There's a group of characters in Robert Heinlein novel (Strange in a Strange Land, IIRC) that are professional witnesses, that will always report exactly what they see and only what they see. As an example of what that means, one is asked "What colour is that house on that hillside", and the answer is "It's while on the sides I can see."

I'm taking somewhat that approach. I'm not prepared to assume what I can't see in that video, because I wasn't there, didn't see it and can't see it from the video. What we might, correctly or incorrectly, infer from that video footage is not evidence, it's assumption.

[SeriousSam]

Format you seem to have missed the point as I was not chiding you about the fact that you were pulling up Blitzen about slaughtering innocents, moreover the way you went about doing so. Using emotive words like troll or facist and responding in an agressive manner won't win you any arguments and generally just makes the more "measured" of us think that you are being just a big an idiot as he was. Admittedly you may not have argued him round even with more balanced and logical posts, however you would probably have garnered more support for your position from other members.

In regards to latin word play being pontificating then let me ask you a question... would you have found it funny if I had directed it against Blitzen? If so then think about why you didn't find it funny when it was directed at you.

In terms of mass protests I realise that I didn't explain my point that well so I'll try to elucidate further. Protesting can work, you just have to be clever about how you go about it because the political landscape has changed radically since the days of the great marches. In this post 9/11 world governments cannot be seen to back down against threats because it makes them look weak, and with the ongoing terrorist situation that's something that they cannot do. So hitting them head on with marches that descend into "rioting" only entrenches their position. It also puts public opinion firmly on their side which does nothing for your cause either.

It should also be noted that this is one of the first of many changes and if the government backs down now it will only make their job harder in the future and they realise this. If however you enter into dialogue and use less "head on" tactics then you can create room to allow them to both make concessions and save face such that in effect both sides win to some extent.