Mortgage: How many properties did you look before..

[scaryjim]

...and there we have the reason you can't afford to save for a deposit!

The main one, certainly. Wouldn't have it any other way by choice (something I might not have come Paril, sadly) - I love having some free time to pursue my own business interests, and I'm very lucky that the wife and I have the discipline to live on that kind of income.

@josh: it sounds like you're planning to live a fair distance out of London anyway (googled epping forest, don't know the area myself), for the same reasons that Saracen outlined. So I'm not sure why you said there's no point buying a house outside of London, as you (to my limited understanding) are

Oh, and @oolon - ever visited Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham (yes, I know, you lived there )... my point being everything you list about liking in London (except the roads, obviously) is available in pretty much every major conurbation in the country. Sounds to me that what you like is city life, and you just happen to have settled in London. I'd put a small wager that if you'd settled and stayed in Birmingham you'd feel exactly the way I do about London...

[Saracen]

I have commented on your reasons and the place i am, is almost PERFECT for u and is still in london.

point? You can have all the benefits you have listed easily in certain parts of london.

You didn't ask me about "London". You asked me about "central London".

But if u know your line of work is in central london, why live far out of london if u had the choice?

Do you really class "less than 5 minutes from Epping forest" as "central London"?

As for house prices, that very much depends on how you define "London" too. If I took my house and move it to central London, I doubt I cold afford it if I tripled what it's worth here. And in some parts of Central London, you could add a zero on top the end and still be unable to afford it.

For what it's worth, I'd class central London as being the City, Moorgate, Holborn, Chancery Lane, Marylebone, Victoria, and so on, and with a similar range of locations south of the river.

You can have all the benefits you have listed easily in certain parts of london.

Erm, no, I can't. Anywhere, absolutely anywhere in London is going to involve an added journey length to the places I go regularly. I'm being cagey about that because this is a public forum and I'm careful what I say, but for reasons I'm not going into, I make certain journeys regularly, and the very closest point in London in terms of travel time adds 30 minutes to my journey, and I'd have to drive pretty much past my current door on that journey. From central London, add at least 30 minutes to that, adding an hour to my current journey .... each way.

But I'll also put it another way. As I don't work in London any more, nothing about London appeals to me. And at my age, if it was a choice of living in London or changing jobs, I'd change job. I can think of no circumstances whatever under which I'd be prepared to live in London. Did I mention, I detest the place? I have never been willing to live in London (well, not since I move out of the dump anyway), and these days, I'm not even prepared to commute regularly. I will go in for an occasional business meeting, but even that, you can count the number of occasions on the fingers (maybe including thumb, maybe not) of one hand. Fortunately, even those business meetings, I get to choice if I go, and if so, which ones I got to. It's got to be something pretty good to get me to go.

In fact, over the last 20 years, I'd bet I've had more business meetings ion the USA than I have in London, and have certainly spent a lot more time there. Hell, I've spent more time in Japan than in London, maybe even more in Tokyo than London, though that's borderline.

And this is not even exactly an anti-London situation. It's an anti-city situation. I don't like Tokyo any more (and, in fact, less) than I like London. There aren't many cities I would be willing to live in, and I can't off-hand think of any in this country.

[Saracen]

I love living in London

I grew up in a village, then I moved to Birmingham (much better), then Loughborough (fail) I liked the place so much i moved to Leicester. Then I moved to London, and I have now been here half my life. The bigger the place is the happier I seem to be.

I love living in London
I love having 24x364 day public transport.

I love ....

I love living in London

BTW did I say I love living in London.

.....

As I say, each to his own, and there's nothing wrong with you loving it. If you do, you do. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if Satan wants me to live in hell, make it like London. But then, that's why I don't live in London .... or Birmingham, or Leicester, etc.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

If only I take it you mean 220k !

Actually, I wonder what's the cheapest you can buy anywhere in the UK, probably 30k ?

yea 220k

The main one, certainly. Wouldn't have it any other way by choice (something I might not have come Paril, sadly) - I love having some free time to pursue my own business interests, and I'm very lucky that the wife and I have the discipline to live on that kind of income.

@josh: it sounds like you're planning to live a fair distance out of London anyway (googled epping forest, don't know the area myself), for the same reasons that Saracen outlined. So I'm not sure why you said there's no point buying a house outside of London, as you (to my limited understanding) are...?

Do u know how giganic epping forest is? it starts in zone 5 london and continues past the m25. im looking at places in zone 4/5 mate and still minutes away from epping forest

Again, all i am saying is that there are LOTS of places INSIDE london that cater for Saracen's needs

It seems as though some people think london is just zone 1-3 You be surprised what u can find outside those zones

[Saracen]

....

Again, all i am saying is that there are LOTS of places INSIDE london that cater for Saracen's needs

....

No, there aren't. There are none at all. Absolutely none at all. What you got was a partial list, but it included the bit about journeys.

[scaryjim]

Do u know how giganic epping forest is?

Actually, I was rather curious so I measured it up on google maps. It's 1.5miles wide, and 4.5 miles long.

That's *tiny*. I could walk across is in half an hour, and along it in an hour and a half.

im looking at places in zone 4/5 mate and still minutes away from epping forest

Again, all i am saying is that there are LOTS of places INSIDE london that cater for Saracen's needs

Only, Epping forest starts ten miles from the centre of London. That's a hell of a long way.

It seems as though some people think london is just zone 1-3 You be surprised what u can find outside those zones

Well, yes - there's only so far you can go and still actually claim to live "in London" - particularly when you're trying to make a point about how all the jobs are in central London. It's like people in Bolton saying they live in Manchester, or Sutton Coldfield saying they live in Birmingham. Just because they say it, doesn't make it true...!

[dbh]

And much less for their rent/mortgage Choices

If you put it that way mate why am I still in London (apart from friends and family and job)

Once I pass that driving test!!! once I do.. oh hmm

[j.o.s.h.1408]

@scaryjim

Now unless im not mistaken, is there a separate city in the uk called "central london" Dont class it as separate cities, i still live/am looking to live in "london" whether its in oxford street or some 4 bedroom house next to epping forest, its still in london

And the fact you dont work in london too so end of the day, i was just commenting on your initial reasons why you hate to live in london mate but your follow up post makes a lot more sense mate



@Saracen, partial? i replied to most of your points in the reasons why you dont want to live in "london"

Also, i am talking about living in london, not living in cenral london.

Thing is, i am fine taking 45mins door to door to get to work from where i am now and you may not be, but your other post cleared proper valid reasons where i cannot dispute but earlier i can when u said how there was next to no greenery/open fields, oo many clubs/resturants, noisy places etc etc where my point was its not like that on certain places in london.

Had you stated how that wherever you live in london, its difficult/long to get to places you like to go, then fair enough. cant argue with that.

Also, i would never like to live in central london either. too noisy, crowded, not enough open space and of course, too pricey

[scaryjim]

@scaryjim

Now unless im not mistaken, is there a separate city in the uk called "central london" Dont class it as separate cities...

I wasn't trying to make a point about separate cities, just that there has to come a point where you don't really live "in" London anymore. The conurbation and sprawl make it hard to determine where that is - for instance heading west, places like Watford, Richmond, Kingston and Croydon are all the same distance or closer to central London than Epping Forest, but most people would recognise them as separate places - so if you said "I live in Croydon" they'd think "ah, yes, that's near London", rather than "ah, yes, that's in London". Since we're talking mostly about commuting distance v. house price, I think it's a reasonable, if somewhat arbitrary, distinction to make!

[j.o.s.h.1408]

I wasn't trying to make a point about separate cities, just that there has to come a point where you don't really live "in" London anymore. The conurbation and sprawl make it hard to determine where that is - for instance heading west, places like Watford, Richmond, Kingston and Croydon are all the same distance or closer to central London than Epping Forest, but most people would recognise them as separate places - so if you said "I live in Croydon" they'd think "ah, yes, that's near London", rather than "ah, yes, that's in London". Since we're talking mostly about commuting distance v. house price, I think it's a reasonable, if somewhat arbitrary, distinction to make!

possibly but its still in london any place inside the m25 is london

[Saracen]

....

@Saracen, partial? i replied to most of your points in the reasons why you dont want to live in "london" ....

You misunderstand me. I don't mean you partially replied. I mean the list was partial. It was examples of why I, personally, won't live in London, not an exhaustive definition.

....

Had you stated how that wherever you live in london, its difficult/long to get to places you like to go, then fair enough. cant argue with that.
)

Erm, I did.

- because I often travel to other areas, and from here, I can drive without having to battle out of London to do it.

....

Thing is, i am fine taking 45mins door to door to get to work from where i am now and you may not be, ....

And I can be in my old office in about an hour. Not, I might add, the average 1.5 hours, each way, you referred to. And the difference in journey time between being "in" London, on the outer edge in my direction, and where I am, is about 20 minutes, and less on a fast train.

But my initial comment on living in London wasn't about my reasons. It was specifically because you said there was "no point" in living outside London, if you work in Central London. Specifically,

Prices in London are holding there own and if you work in a kind of IT sector like me, Most jobs are in cenral london and no poin buying a house outside london spending £300 a month on travel and spending over an hour going home either

My reply was that I don't' agree about "no point". There is a point. It might not apply to you, and you might want to live in London. But there is a point in buying and living outside London.

Thing is, i am fine taking 45mins door to door to get to work from where i am now and you may not be, but your other post cleared proper valid reasons where i cannot dispute but earlier i can when u said how there was next to no greenery/open fields, oo many clubs/resturants, noisy places etc etc where my point was its not like that on certain places in london.

Where did I say there was "next to no greenery/open fields"?

Anyone that thinks there's no greenery in London, especially in central London, doesn't know London very well. It's festooned with parks, for a start, and I know some of them very well. You will not, however, find many open fields, certainly until you get well out into the suburbs. 10 minutes walk from where I live, there's a nice bluebell woods. Five minutes in the car in just about any direction and you're in farmland. When I come home late at night, I have to keep an eye open for deer crossing the road. That might be a Muntjac that's got out, but there are equally significant numbers of full-size deer, and they cross quiet country roads at night. More than once, I've had to brake hard in a lane, to let a family cross. We've all got urban foxes, etc, but the countryside round here, in virtually any direction, is farmland.

And again, where did I say there were "too many clubs/restaurants"?

What I said was that a good reason for living in London is if you like the clubs, restaurants, theatres, etc. That is not to suggest there are too many. Merely that the presence of them is a good reason for living in London, especially close to the centre, if that is important to you. It is not to me.

If I'm working in central London, I've got essentially three choices.

1) Live in central London. If the theatres, etc, interested me, I might do that, but they don't. Oh, and if I could afford it, which is doubtful, and certainly not if I wanted to buy a house anything like this one.

2) Live in outer London. My brother does. But to get from central London to outer London, he still has to commute. Or did, before he retired. If I'm going to commute, then the difference is in quite how long it takes, what it costs, and whether I use tube, or a train from a mainline terminal.

3) Live here, or somewhere like here. The commute takes a bit longer, to the tune of about 20 minutes. So my time "cost" is 40 minutes a day extra on the commute, over living on the outskirts, and that's either work time, or unwind time. As for monetary cost, well, that has to be balanced against housing costs, and that outweighs the commuting costs.


Which brings me back to my initial point. Is t here "no point" in living outside London? It depends how you want to live your life, but for me, and for many others, there very much is a point, which is that we live where we want, how we want. It's a trade-off, between getting the things I/we want, like the housing, and the extra time and money involved in commuting.

Living outside won't suit everyone, but to say there is "no point" is simply wrong. The point is living where and how we want.

And I'll go a step further. Now that I no longer go into London very much, there's a strong logic for moving even further away, and not even living here, much less in London.

So yes, there's a point in not living in London. There's a price to be paid for living outside, but there are benefits too. Whether that price, or the benefits, suit you is another thing, but they sure as hell suit a lot of us.

[Saracen]

@scaryjim

Now unless im not mistaken, is there a separate city in the uk called "central london" Dont class it as separate cities, i still live/am looking to live in "london" whether its in oxford street or some 4 bedroom house next to epping forest, its still in london

You raided the distinction of "central" London, Josh, in the first post I quoted. And if you're in the suburbs, then whether there or in the centre, you have to commute to work. All that changes is the time, the cost and perhaps the method. If you work in central London and commute to Epping or Waltham Cross, you still commute. I used to as well, just a bit further out and on an inter-city train. The commuting doesn't change much, but the house prices and the surrounding environment sure can.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

I thought I already covered that.

- because I detest London.
- because I like quieter areas
- because I can be in open fields five minutes from my house
- because almost everything life requires is cheaper out here, from houses to carrots.
- because I'm not into the theatre / club / restaurant scene
- because I can afford to like in a nice, largish house not a pokey flat
- because I detest London.
- because I often travel to other areas, and from here, I can drive without having to battle out of London to do it.
- because I can (or could, as I don't do it any more) commute, door to door, in an hour
- because I can work on the train
- because where I am, it's QUIET at night. And I mean, silent.
- because I detest London.


I really don't understand people who actually want to live in London. Each to his own, and all that, but I'd have to be paid a very generous extra figure these days to get me just to work in London on a regular basis, never-mind live there, and to get me to live actually there, I'd have to be paid enough to settle Greece's outstanding debts .... every week.

Did I mention I detest London?

And again, where did I say there were "too many clubs/restaurants"?

Right, you diddnt say the exact words as above but what you said as a reason why you dont like living in london is because you are not into those things. i then replied and said that the area i live in doesnt have that.

Where did I say there was "next to no greenery/open fields"?

Again, maybe its my fault for not quoting the exact word for word you said but you said you are 5mins away from open land,greenery. well so am i and i am in London. Again pointing to you that there is lots of greenary/open land in london.

The reason why i said there is no point living outside london when your line of work is based in central london is because you can gain a similar sort of living style and benefits that you currently have inside london. You just got to look outside zone 3 to see that. That was my point.

I have challenged some of your reasoning with places like epping forest offering the following:

1. Lots of open field/greenary
2. quieter area
3. Lots of places to visit and see that are away from london and do not need to drive through central london to get there
4. Decent transportation thats quick enough to go to central london
5. affordable 230k+houses with your own off street parking
6. less congestive

All im saying is that IMO you can have same sort of benefits in the outer parts of london compared to those who actually live outside london

[Bugbait]

Back to the OP's original question I looked at about 30 flats in mid-2006 when I bought my first place in the UK. Yes, flats since that's all I could afford for what I was willing to pay in the area I wanted to live in (Zone 2/3 West London). I could've paid more but my wife and I only wanted to take a mortgage that we could afford on one income to be conservative. We didn't know how long we'd stay in the UK back then and didn't want to put all our eggs in one basket/country. Could we have bought a house in the area for the same money? Yes, but it would've been far (over 10 mins walk) from train and tube stops (I hate taking the bus) and more importantly, far from amenities (ie. The High Road). Good local amenities are important for us.

It was our first property purchase in the UK and it proved to be a very different experience than Australia, ie. Semi-detached and Leasehold are foreign terms to an Aussie. I saw the 30 odd properties over a 2 week period and it became easier over time to quickly distinguish between the good and bad. In the end only 2 properties fit our criteria with one being clearly preferable. I knew it was the one we wanted within the first minute or less. That would be my tip. If you can't see yourself living in any property you view within the first minute then it's probably not the one. This doesn't mean you should simply put an offer down. This "emotional" or "gut" test is purely to root out what you do and don't like. After that, logic should set in and then weigh each property that does "pass" the test against each other. Property purchases after all are largely subjective since each person places different importance on things.

When buying our second property earlier last year we only viewed 4 houses. We bought in the same area and after 5 years had a good impression of what the more desirable streets were. This made weeding out the good from bad much easier. In the end, you should keep looking until you're satisfied. If you're lucky you'll find the right place after a few viewings, other times it could take 100. A property for the regular Joe is likely to be the single largest purchase they will ever make in their lives so why rush it?

I personally love living in London and wouldn't live elsewhere in the UK. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that London is a nice place to live because it's just so subjective. I work with many people that commute daily from Wales, Brighton, etc. I personally would never do it but I appreciate why many people would. At the end of the day for me a big house isn't as important as where that house is.

[dbh]

I'm being proactive and trying to look at some developments in london. Does anyone have any links? Open to suggestions. Looking around north london!

[Saracen]

Right, you diddnt say the exact words as above but what you said as a reason why you dont like living in london is because you are not into those things. i then replied and said that the area i live in doesnt have that.

....

Again, maybe its my fault for not quoting the exact word for word you said but you said you are 5mins away from open land,greenery. well so am i and i am in London. Again pointing to you that there is lots of greenary/open land in london.

The reason why i said there is no point living outside london when your line of work is based in central london is because you can gain a similar sort of living style and benefits that you currently have inside london. You just got to look outside zone 3 to see that. That was my point.

I have challenged some of your reasoning with places like epping forest offering the following:

1. Lots of open field/greenary
2. quieter area
3. Lots of places to visit and see that are away from london and do not need to drive through central london to get there
4. Decent transportation thats quick enough to go to central london
5. affordable 230k+houses with your own off street parking
6. less congestive

All im saying is that IMO you can have same sort of benefits in the outer parts of london compared to those who actually live outside london

It's not about "exact wording".

By "open fields", where I am, in just about any direction, I have miles and miles of open fields. And not just open fields, but miles and miles of winding country lanes through open country, little villages, wonderful pubs, and so on.

It's not just that, though. I have clear, open roads. I don't remember the last time I had problems with traffic round here, though it's a but heavier in the peak morning and evening rush. But even then, I hit maybe a five minute delay. If I go from here to the closest point to here that's in London, that situation is very different. Traffic density is far higher, at any time of day, and it's an utter nightmare in anything resembling rush hour.

Of course, traffic density varies in London. The situation in the inner few square miles and the situation on the very outskirts is different, but even on the outskirts, it's much worse than it is here, and though even that varies as you go round the M25 and the areas bordering it, it's worse everywhere I've been that it is here by an order of magnitude or worse. And I include Waltham Forest, Waltham Cross, Epping, etc, in that.

As for property prices, I can't say I've studied every area of London, and as I said, prices vary. But for those areas I have studied, that being those anywhere close to the side of London I'm in, I could not get a property similar to mine without at least doubling the budget, and probably tripling it. And I've looked. Perhaps I could get something round about the same size, but not in an area anything like this one. And hence, not like for like.

....

All im saying is that IMO you can have same sort of benefits in the outer parts of london compared to those who actually live outside london

As an opinion, you are, of course, entitled to it. And I'm entitled to, and do, disagree.

Clearly, some areas of London are closer to the situation I'm in than others, and where you are is far closer than central London, or even Tottenham, Edmonton, Barnet, Enfield, Southgate, Ilford, Romford etc, and all the outskirts and surrounding areas. Some of those get pretty close to what it's like round here, but none of them are areas I would substitute for here. And I spend a lot of time even further out that where I currently "live". And prefer it.

I have a friend that commutes, two or three days a week, to London from a little village on the outskirts of York. There is no way the area he lives can be compared to London. It's a village in a spectacularly beautiful area, and an entirely different pace of life. And yes, commuting costs him a fortune, but he works of the train ,and can afford the cost of the fares. So he has a trade-off to make. He can live further out, in a stunning location, enjoy quiet village life, and the pace of life not just for himself but for his family. Or he can live in London. The price he pays is the cost and time of the commute. And he pays it gladly.

Another friend lives in a quiet area is southern France. Every couple of weeks, he comes over for a few days in the office in London. Again, there's a cost and a time element to commute, but the benefit is the lifestyle.

Those are obviously extreme examples, but it's that same graduation I was talking about, but just further out (quite a bit further out). The whole nature of the area changes as you go out from London, or for that matter, out from any major city. City centre life is different from suburban life, which if different again from country and/or village life. And that is what you can't get in London, that type of lifestyle.

Beyond that, we'll have to just disagree. But bear in mind, I know where I am and what life is like here, and where I'm moving to. You don't. When I say I can't get life like I have here in London, it's not for lack of looking in the past. Now, however, I'm only interested in moving further out on that graduation, and wouldn't live in any part of London that I might conceivably be able to afford for any reason I can imagined. Even if I had the millions I'd need to afford a srubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishy mansion in a posh inner London square, I sure wouldn't choose to spend it by buying in London. In fact, give me that kind of money and I doubt I'd set foot in the dump ever again.