Oh how convenient, your religion is "unearthly" and weird, but other religions are quite normal. Thus yours must be better, right? What's to say it isn't just even more off the wall and wrong than others? Different doesn't mean correct.Originally Posted by fuddam
I'm always amazed at how perverse the christian god is. It's almost psychotic. "Get down on your knees worship me of face an eternity of torture. Oh and to test your faith (to make sure you aren't faking it, just avoid hell) I'll throw you a few tests, like giving your kid cancer or by asking you to sacrifice your kid to me on an alter - just to see if you'll do as you are told. And I do all this because I love you ! Now get worshiping !
I'm so glad that it's all just man made. The prospect that it was actually true is really horrific !
Thanks for the offer, but .... no thanks.
If you believe it, then that's your affair, and your right. Personally, I don't. And I'm certainly not interested in trying to show you otherwise, partly because I don't have the time, and partly because experience in this kind of debate in my past suggests in pointless and a waste of time. I doubt either of us are going to change our point of view, so why bother?
Put it this way. If you've got some mind-bogglingly convincing evidence that the God you say speaks though the Bible even actually exists at all, I'm open to hearing/seeing it. You'll manage something no-one else has been able to do in a very long time of trying. Otherwise, everything else is pointless, because it's down merely to belief, and 'cos, well, been there, done that, and wrote the book.
Thor was pretty unearthly badass.
Thor was indeed a boss.
Vodka
There are parts like the flood mentioned that I believe might well have happened ( excluding noahs ark ) ,but as for the cause thats something else The Egyptians - and other cultures too spoke of their being more than one god, and the pyramids themselves are said to have erosion which suggests they were surrounded by great bodies of water ..
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Last edited by melon; 21-01-2012 at 05:43 PM.
I agree that we are not going to enlighten fuddam and he's not going to convert any of us, but this kind of debate is still important. This thread has had nearly a 1000 views but only a dozen or so contributors. For the sakes of all the readers it's important to expose religion and its followers for what they really are.
It's important to report all the cases of child abuse. And to ask why so many school governors are religious. And to question whether 5% of the funding of a school is enough to buy 100% of the admission policy (and essentially exclude atheists). It's important that people are told that long distance transport to religious schools is provided free (at a time of so many cuts). And it's important that people realise just how sinister christians can be.
For example, imagine you bought a property and then the local church handed you a bill for £350,000 to fix the church ! Couldn't happen ? Think again. http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...rch-of-england
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancel_repair_liability
Sure this is rare, but I'll tell you something that isn't ... "Chancel Insurance". It's quite common these days (if you buy a house) to find yourself being advised to get Chancel Insurance - £500 - KaChing !
These sky fairy worshipers need to be exposed for what they are.
The level of disbelief between Atheists and Judeo-Christians:
It's a good list but it's missing the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Tarvu !
Remember, It is and it is not ... And it's so easy to join ... http://vimeo.com/1911088
I'm pretty sure the omission of parody deities was intentional.
Awesome tautology !
The problem with a 'Great Flood' is that there are so many of them!
Imagine you are a member of a small tribe. You live in a valley, close to water, on a flood plain (although you don't know what that is). One year it floods and your village is washed away. Ten years later you've rebuilt, but you're still telling the story of the 'Great Flood' and it gets deeper every year! The entire world was flooded, because that's what your valley is to you.
This is a long way from claiming that the Grand Canyon was carved by a single flood.
According to that wikipedia article, from 2013 property owners will only be liable if the liability is in the land registry - should cut down on people having to buy chancel insurance "just in case" at least.
I was going to avoid jumping into the debate - mainly for the reason that discussions like this are usually fruitless when people are just firing shots at one another. However, I have to jump in to both agree and disagree with Billythewiz.
Debates like this do have importance in that people are watching, and even of many aren't really paying much attention or thinking some might be.
So, for that reason, I have to take objection to this sentiment, "to expose religion and its followers for what they really are,"..."child abuse"..."sinister christians".
This basically accuses all religious people as being, by nature, sinister child abusers. I can't let that lie. I don't have a particular interest in defending all religions and their followers but I will speak up for Christianity.
I realise you may have a bone to pick Billy, and it may seem rational to you based upon what is actually a misunderstanding of Christian theology, but please, by your own statement that many people are reading this, would you please take more care to not simply throw out defamatory generalisations? It's careless. We should speak out against injustice and abuse but because of the very nature of those things we should do so accurately and carefully.
So in response:
First, the philosophical approach.
Summary - if there is no God then Christians are no different from any other human beings and so they should not be singled out as especially evil.
If you are right that there is no God, then Christians are no different than any other human beings and so their alleged sickness or evil comes only from themselves as human beings - just as you (and all the rest of us) are a human being. That means if you are concerned about it you should take ownership of it as such and recognise that their evil is no better or worse than any other.
Unless there is some special hidden evil behind Christianity (which you would, I believe, deny?) talking about 'Christianity' or any other religion is meaningless - you should rather talk only about human beings, human animals, and nothing more. The only exception would be if you wish to address the problem of religious evil as one of philosophy or world view. That is to say, that Christians are especially responsible for evil because their religion or world view leads them to it.
This leads us to the analytical approach.
Summary: The Christian world view or religion, in itself (and therefore when properly practised) does not, by itself, lead to, motivate, or indicate any sort of the crimes or abuses you mentioned.
If one is going to accuse Christianity as being especially prone to evil, or as directly motivating people to evil of the sorts you mentioned, you had better demonstrate it. There is no room here to evaluate the whole of Christian belief, so I shall summarise. True Christianity was summed up, by Christ, as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "Love your neighbour as yourself." All of Biblical teaching is summed up in, and rests upon, those two commandments. Just to double up, the Old Testament book of Micah it states "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Indeed, child abuse, theft etc. are condemned by the Christian worldview/religion, not encouraged. Therefore upon the grounds of being an evil world-view Christianity cannot be condemned. If anyone has any questions on Christianity they can by all means ask me and I'll provide answers as succinctly as I can.
So then, if there is no God to make His followers different by nature, and if the world-view itself cannot be condemned as direct motivation for evil (or as is the case with Christianity, if it does in fact motivate one toward evil), then if there is a case to be made that Christians are especially evil, that case must somehow lie in an unexpected ability or tendency within the religion to drive normal human beings to commit special evil (even if such is not the intention). The way to discover such a subtle or less than obvious truth, if it is truth, would be to compare Christians and Christian behaviour to that of other non-Christian human beings, and perhaps, especially, to those of no religion whatsoever.
This, finally, leads us to the empirical approach.
Summary: It can be observed historically that Christians do not commit more evil than any other human group of human beings, and, I would add, are in fact responsible for an unusual amount of good.
I'm sure I've just ruffled some feathers with that one, and doubtless some will be thinking "the Crusades", and even, "The Spanish Inquisition" (which in this case has been expected). I'm sure there are also plenty of other examples people want to bring up. However, my argument is not that Christians have not been responsible for evil, even grave evil - although I would also argue that evil is often wrongly attributed to Christians or Christianity (abuse done in the name of someone or something should not necessarily be held to their account).
My argument is that when considered against the background of all evil committed in the world, it will be found that examples of all types of evil can be found present in all human beings from all groups and times and countries. I wish to say that evil which some may point out in a Christian is evil that is common to all men and for which all men are responsible. I would also argue that the good which is found in Christians and Christianity is good which is also common to all men and can be found in human beings in times and people and places who do not call themselves by the name of Jesus Christ.
Christians are human beings and belong to that common brotherhood. We share in common the human traits and nature - it's highs and lows, challenges and joys.
Even if the Crusades and the inquisition can be fully attributed to Christianity do we wish to argue that such evil outweighs all the other evil in history? It is not so. In terms of sheer killings, the big numbers must all be drawn from recent years. The death toll of atrocities committed by Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and controversially Hitler (as the big examples) far exceeds that of the wars of older times gone by. I feel I can state without the risk of too much contention, that none of these can be described as Christian, or even religious. It has been argued that these may even be examples of those who are killing in the pursuit of atheistic philosophies.
Wherever the truth may lie about that, I don't think we even have to go that far. I think an honest examination of history will show that most wars are driven by the ambition of Man, or at least, certain men; conquerers who wished to expand and rule as much of the world as they could. There are also genocidal wars, where one group seeks to utterly destroy another. Then there are wars for resources - wars fought to control riches. Along with the murder in war there are all sorts of other evil acts committed at the same time which stem not from religious impulse, and certainly not Christian impulse, but rather from evil impulses common to all men.
I do not believe an honest assessment of history can show that Christianity is more responsible for these evils than other groups, or even that religion is responsible for it. Men will draw up their lines of battle along whatever differences they find compelling at that time or place or mood. 'Religion' is just one reason among many.
Additionally, I will say that although I do believe that when all men and all groups and all evil and good are considered all types will be found in all, I do not believe that all groups are equal. I do believe that there are philosophies which directly inspire evil and groups which are responsible for more evil than others. I also believe that despite failings in some Christians and Christian groups, when looked at as a whole, it will be seen the Jesus Christ, through His Church, has been responsible for a massive amount of good. I would dare say even the greatest amount of good. As examples I would cite the promotion of education for centuries, compassion for the poor which has taken many thousands around the world and to the worst of conditions in order to do and promote self-less good. There has also come from Christ the drive to end various societal injustices. Certainly there have been areas where Christians have committed acts or moved in a negative direction with some of these, however, in terms of the overall picture or when the big pushes came, Christianity a driving force. Lastly, I would argue that much of what we take for granted as good about western civilisation has come from Christianity. I understand that those who deny God's existence will want to - and need to - attribute such good to something other than God - nevertheless, I believe history shows that the Christian world view (no matter what else 'might' have been responsible) was responsible for many of the values we share and love today.
However, I do believe I have overstepped my intention and have said more than I needed to. I do not, and did not, need to prove or argue for the good or supremacy of Christianity as a world-view nor the benefits brought to the world by its true adherents. I needed only to demonstrate that Christians or Christianity are no more responsible for evil than any other group.
Last edited by Galant; 21-01-2012 at 10:19 PM.
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