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Thread: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    and what? we should keep pushing the only tiny bit of valid Russian propaganda that they have in this conflict?
    No,I was correcting what you said. It is from the IBT - so not some Russian propaganda site.

    The law was passed and the President repealed it. In the scheme of things what you said was right,but the details were not. Its quite a balanced article too,looking at what both sides think about it and the argument for one or many state languages.

    I don't know why you are getting annoyed about it.


    The deepening crisis in Ukraine involves not only issues of political sovereignty, European integration and Russian hegemony, but also language and its relationship to nationalism and ethnic identity. Immediately after the removal of President Viktor Yanukovych from power on Feb. 22, the Ukrainian Parliament repealed a controversial law passed in 2012 that allowed the use of "regional languages" – including Russian, Hungarian, Romanian and Tatar -- in courts and certain government functions in areas of the country where such speakers constituted at least 10 percent of the population. (In 1991, in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union, the newly independent state of Ukraine established Ukrainian as its sole official language.)

    Interim President Oleksandr Turchynov has since vetoed that repeal, but the episode has alarmed many of Ukraine’s Russian speakers and others. “Just as the law itself was meant to validate the continued use of Russian in Ukraine for a wide range of activities, the move to cancel that law was perceived as taking away rights enjoyed by the Russian-speaking population, and potentially a sign that there might be growing discrimination against them,” explained Olga Oliker, a security and defense analyst at the RAND Corp.

    Indeed, after the 2012 law was passed, 13 of Ukraine’s 27 regions, mostly in the industrial eastern parts of the country, quickly adopted Russian as a second official language. (But even then, the passage of the law triggered demonstrations in the streets and even fistfights in Parliament.) Dr. Vitaly Chernetsky, associate professor in the department of Slavic languages and literatures at the University of Kansas, commented that the 2012 language law was poorly written and roundly criticized by many experts at the time. “Additionally, no budgetary allocations were made at the time, so passing this law was, in effect, a purely symbolic measure intended to divert the attention of the Ukrainian electorate from corruption and economic problems,” Chernetsky said in an interview.

    According to the CIA/World Factbook, the Russian language is spoken by about one-fourth (24 percent) of the Ukrainian population, while about one-sixth (17.3 percent) of the Ukrainian population are ethnic Russians. RT, a Russian television network, claims that 40 percent of Ukrainians speak Russian, (presumably including non-Russians). Russian speakers are concentrated in the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine – while in the southern autonomous region of Crimea (where the Russians have had a naval base on the Black Sea for more than 200 years), an estimated 60 percent of the population are ethnic Russians.


    The Ukraine Parliament reportedly will consider yet another language law in the coming weeks or months – it is unclear if it will again allow a multi-language framework for the country’s social and political life.

    Svitlana Melnyk, a lecturer in Slavic languages and literatures at Indiana University-Bloomington, argued that the establishment of monolingualism formed a key part of solidifying Ukraine's national identity. "For post-Soviet independent countries and Ukraine in particular, the state language has symbolic meaning and a great symbolic value in the process of nation-building,” she said. “This is a national symbol along with the flag and anthem. The language issue is highly politicized in Ukraine, and its future management heavily depends on the evolving political situation."

    Melnyk added that she thinks that Ukrainian should be “the only state language” in the country. “At the same time, the [new language] law should consider the current socio-linguistic situation and protect the languages of national and ethnic minorities in the country," she said.

    But the temporary repeal of the 2012 law sparked outrage from Ukraine to Moscow and even in the European Union. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev condemned the law's abolition. “We do not understand what is going on there. There is a real threat to our [Russian] interests and to the lives and health of our citizens,” he said at a press conference, adding that the new interim government in Kiev lacks legitimacy. Similarly, Konstantin Dolgov, the Russian Foreign Ministry’s commissioner for human rights, characterized the law’s repeal as an “attack on the Russian language in Ukraine” and a “brutal violation of ethnic minority rights.”

    Outside of Russia, the European Parliament even passed a resolution calling on the new Ukraine regime to respect the rights (and languages) of its minority population. “The Parliament of Ukraine has made what I believe to be a mistake... canceling a law on regional languages,” Poland's Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski told CNN. “The new Ukrainian government should signal very eloquently to the ethnic minorities in Ukraine that they are welcome in Ukraine; that they are going to be part of the new Ukraine. And also Ukraine is a member of the Council of Europe, [with] its laws on protecting minorities.”

    Separately, in response to the gathering storm in Ukraine, some nationalist lawmakers in Moscow, led by the far-right Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, have called for the fast-tracking of Russian citizenship to ethnic Russians in Ukraine. LPDR MP Ilya Drozdov has already tabled a bill that would grant Russian citizenship to Ukrainian-Russians within six months of proving their ethnicity. “The adoption of this amendment would allow [us] to lawfully use the migration potential of Ukrainian citizens of Russian ethnicity who desire to get Russian citizenship,” Drozdov explained. RT reported that more than 2 million residents of the former Soviet republics have received fast-tracked Russian citizenship since the fall of the Soviet Union – even including people not of ethnic Russian origin, like the South Ossetians of Georgia, who speak an Iranian-related language.

    Meanwhile Ukrainian nationalists, particularly members of the ultra-right Svoboda (Freedom) party led by Oleg Tyahnibok, have even threatened to ban the Russian language completely and even strip the Ukrainian citizenship of the nation's Russian speakers. Jean Asselborn, the foreign minister of Luxembourg, in a meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov in Moscow, expressed their grave concerns about another Svoboda-proposed bill that would essentially ban all Russian language media in Ukraine (which Svoboda has defended by citing that Russian reports of the turmoil in Ukraine have been tarred with bias). That bill would prohibit from Ukraine any media from nations that have not ratified the European Convention on Transfrontier Television -- Russia has signed the convention, but has not ratified it yet.

    “Russia is not a party to the convention, but it does not prevent us from broadcasting all across Europe. No EU member makes any problems for our broadcasts. If such a decision is taken in Ukraine, it would be a serious violation of the freedom of speech,” Lavrov said at a media conference.

    With respect to the prevalence of Russian language, Chernetsky also noted if one looks at an average Ukrainian newsstand, one will find that about 90 percent of the publications are in Russian, even in the areas where the majority of the population speaks Ukrainian. “The Russian language also dominates the radio,” he said. “The only segment of the media where the Ukrainian language predominates is the national-level television channels.”

    Oliker noted that while Ukraine has some strident far-right groups, including Svoboda and Pravyi Sektor (Right Sector), there are also more measured voices that recognize that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic country and which have absolutely no interest in denying anyone their citizenship on ethnic grounds. “Emotions are of course running very high right now, but I think most Ukrainian leaders, including the leadership of Svoboda, know they stand to lose far more than they stand to gain by taking action against the ethnic Russian minority,” she noted. “That said, the situation bears watching, because people are very angry and frightened, because one cannot ignore the ethnic undertones to the anger or the fear, and because elements of Svoboda, and certainly Pravyi Sektor, do hold ultra-nationalist views.”

    Russian and Ukrainian are closely related Slavic tongues, but they are also distinct languages with separate ethnic and national identities. The Christian Science Monitor reports that Russian-language activists in Ukraine have long wanted to make Russian a second official state language, citing such scenarios in multi-lingual countries like Canada and India. “There is this pervasive suggestion that if you speak Russian, you’re not a loyal or true Ukrainian. This makes Russian-speakers feel like second-class citizens,” Ruslan Bortnik, vice chairman of Russian-Speaking Ukraine, an advocacy group, told the Monitor.

    Of course, Ukrainian nationalists fear the further encroachment of Russian into its national fabric. “If Russian were an official language, the main fear is that it would be a wide-open door for Russian influence in Ukraine,” said Oleksiy Kolomiyets, president of the Center for European and Transatlantic Studies in Kiev.
    Palash Ghosh
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 06-03-2014 at 02:04 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Nope your the one suggesting the Russians will simply fall to pieces due to a carrier group being there. You don't seem to realise this is not the arse end of Russia. Its right on their doorstep.

    Plus no don't misquote what I said as "will simply walk over everything" - I said a carrier group. You started going on about how the whole NATO alliance would would be quickly running over,etc. You start conflating it - I was not lying when I stated the Russians could cause significant damage to a US carrier group.

    Yet,you seem to think they invincible??

    If the US tried going up to Dover in the UK or Calais in France and tried attacking either of us with a carrier group,do you honestly think those ships would be still around to do what they want??

    Try China then.

    Honestly,especially in range of ground based missile and fighter bases?

    They have numerical superiority and have enough equipment to take losses. They have enough supplies of missiles too.

    It is of no importance,that the US has a more advanced fighter or ship.

    Again,unilateral action by the US would not be a NATO mandate,so they would have to do it alone. If a NATO mandate was passed to attack Russia it would be an act of war.

    Do you honestly think attacking Russia would be some little walk in the park?? One huff and puff and all the Russians will run away crying asking for their mommies??

    you seem to think that 1 magic missile and POOF the carrier is gone...

    im no misquoting you - (want a job with RT today??) , in every war for the last 50 years , all equipment hasn't worked as the maker advertised - USA stealth drones being overridden by Russian kit and landed in iran , Israel overflying everyone with USA kit - missiles not tracking/shooting/hitting in various middle east and african countries or CIWS not working against sea skimmers.

    I`ve already said , quite a lot , the USA wont go into Ukraine , and the Ukrainians don't want them - they are day 5 of calling in there reserves - 5 more days and you`ll have a force of retrained , of up to a million Ukrainian troops with equipment. if they do want to fight they can do it.

    USA is flying the flag - sticking and Arleigh Burke is a message - it could sink a few ships and play tag with any aircraft and sea skimmers , but they wont start anything!


    its brinksmanship - and now down to the Ukrainians.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    USS Taylor is a Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate. Basically its a general purpose destroyer - not very heavy armed,but enough to defend itself.

    USS Mount Whitney is a Blue Ridge class command and control ship. Basically a mobile operations centre but is very lightly armed.

    However,its left the Black Sea,so probably is in the Mediterranean.

    The third is hard to say. If it is a Arleigh Burke-class destroyer,they are the heavier destroyers of the US Navy and have significant air defence and land attack capability.

    The Black Sea fleet does not appear to have the best ships the Russian Navy has ATM,as the Northern Fleet is their main fleet.

    However,the fleet has a Slava-class cruiser. It is not the latest and greatest,but if fully operational is a threat. It has an extremely heavy antiship arnament of 16 P-500 Bazalt antiship missiles,which are supersonic missiles weighing nearly 5 tonnes each,and it has a very long range air defence system.

    There are also two high speed guided missile hovercraft too:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bora_cl...ile_hovercraft

    These have SS-N-22 antiship missiles,another high speed heavyweight antiship missile system.

    Those are the three vessels which are the biggest threat.

    The single submarine the fleet is a special modification of the Kilo class with a pumpjet meaning it will be quieter than normal. The Kilo submarines can deploy the following attack missile:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

    So combine that with the land based launchers,any shooting match could become messy.

    OTH,it also depends on how much of the Russian equipment is fully working.

    The navy was the hardest hit of all the services by the economic collapse in the 1990s.

    So in reality its hard to say.


    Those land based launchers are probably working though as they are new.
    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    to follow on from CAT

    the FFG-7`s (Oliver Hazard Perry class or OHP) is a general purpose frigate , much like the old british type 21 `Amazon class`. they could hunt subs (ASW) , and defend the air (AAW) , but wernt great at either.


    for the brits we built the type 22 broadsword class - a top notch sub hunter , which also had a good close range anti aircraft defence (and now replaced by the type 23 frigate) and for air defence we had the type 42 destroyer (and now the type 45)

    the US never really had any dedicated sub hunter.

    t
    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I suspect the later Russian antiship missile systems have been designed with the Aegis system in mind.

    However,the main problem is the Russian systems have long antiship missile range,so they can easily shoot out of the range of the US ship's ability to attack them. The Slava class also have a derivative of the SA10 system in naval form - probably not as advanced as what the US ship has but is also long range.

    We also don't know what kind of land based air defences the Russians have deployed on their own bases.

    I found this on Google:

    http://www.kommersant.com/photo/max/.../007/map_1.gif



    OFC,I cannot vouch for its accuracy now as its from 2005.

    Krasnodar Airbase is the HQ of the 1st Composite Air Division and 461st Assault Aviation Regiment and the Krasnodar Military Aviation Institute.

    It appears to host Su25 ground attack aircraft and it appears to be a major flight training location,ie,trainer versions of the SU27 and Mig29 and aircraft like the YAK130.





    OFC,this assumes the Russian systems are fully operational.



    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    the George HW Bush (and strike group) is in the med - that's carrier strike group 2 (complete) - with 3 tico`s and 5 arleigh burkes and 1 ohp

    you`ve also got the Bataan and her group off near spain - that's another carrier and 2 LHD`s.


    a lot of firepower if needed.




    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    you seem to think that 1 magic missile and POOF the carrier is gone...

    im no misquoting you - (want a job with RT today??) , in every war for the last 50 years , all equipment hasn't worked as the maker advertised - USA stealth drones being overridden by Russian kit and landed in iran , Israel overflying everyone with USA kit - missiles not tracking/shooting/hitting in various middle east and african countries or CIWS not working against sea skimmers.

    I`ve already said , quite a lot , the USA wont go into Ukraine , and the Ukrainians don't want them - they are day 5 of calling in there reserves - 5 more days and you`ll have a force of retrained , of up to a million Ukrainian troops with equipment. if they do want to fight they can do it.

    USA is flying the flag - sticking and Arleigh Burke is a message - it could sink a few ships and play tag with any aircraft and sea skimmers , but they wont start anything!


    its brinksmanship - and now down to the Ukrainians.
    Yes you are misquoting me. Your the one conflating about US carrier groups not me,and your tone indicated the Russians had no chance. I said that a single US ship won't be a threat,and even a carrier group is not enough,which is true. It would be true for China and India too.

    Even the UK and France.

    The thread of MAD would be though.

    This is why the US would never attack Russia and neither will Russia. It will always be via proxy.

    So for the sakes of not going around in circles. US carrier groups are made of ubotanium and even dropping the moon on them will not cause a dent. Done.

    Also,RT?? So you don't like what I say and I am now paid off. Keep to the argument at hand.

    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 06-03-2014 at 01:40 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    RT was a jibe based on your stance - USA carriers are ubotanium and Russian missiles guided by impossibilium so they cant miss.


    putin has *basically said* he wont allow Ukraine to join nato


    edit:

    wasn't putin:

    Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Vasily Nebenzya tells the BBC - before the news about the referendum move in the Crimean parliament - that:

    Ukrainian membership in Nato is a "red line" for Moscow
    "I do not imagine Ukraine in Nato - neither in immediate future nor in the future at all, [the] best option is to stay neutral."
    West should bear some responsibility for what is happening in Ukraine
    Russia wants "negotiations and political dialogue" to resolve the crisis
    Moscow still refuses to admit that armed men in Crimea are under Russia's control
    and the US has increased to 10 the number of F-15`s in lithuania
    Last edited by HalloweenJack; 06-03-2014 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    USS Taylor is a Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate. Basically its a general purpose destroyer - not very heavy armed,but enough to defend itself.

    USS Mount Whitney is a Blue Ridge class command and control ship. Basically a mobile operations centre but is very lightly armed.

    However,its left the Black Sea,so probably is in the Mediterranean.

    The third is hard to say. If it is a Arleigh Burke-class destroyer,they are the heavier destroyers of the US Navy and have significant air defence and land attack capability.

    The Black Sea fleet does not appear to have the best ships the Russian Navy has ATM,as the Northern Fleet is their main fleet.

    However,the fleet has a Slava-class cruiser. It is not the latest and greatest,but if fully operational is a threat. It has an extremely heavy antiship arnament of 16 P-500 Bazalt antiship missiles,which are supersonic missiles weighing nearly 5 tonnes each,and it has a very long range air defence system.

    There are also two high speed guided missile hovercraft too:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bora_cl...ile_hovercraft

    These have SS-N-22 antiship missiles,another high speed heavyweight antiship missile system.

    Those are the three vessels which are the biggest threat.

    The single submarine the fleet is a special modification of the Kilo class with a pumpjet meaning it will be quieter than normal. The Kilo submarines can deploy the following attack missile:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

    So combine that with the land based launchers,any shooting match could become messy.

    OTH,it also depends on how much of the Russian equipment is fully working.

    The navy was the hardest hit of all the services by the economic collapse in the 1990s.

    So in reality its hard to say.


    Those land based launchers are probably working though as they are new.
    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    to follow on from CAT

    the FFG-7`s (Oliver Hazard Perry class or OHP) is a general purpose frigate , much like the old british type 21 `Amazon class`. they could hunt subs (ASW) , and defend the air (AAW) , but wernt great at either.


    for the brits we built the type 22 broadsword class - a top notch sub hunter , which also had a good close range anti aircraft defence (and now replaced by the type 23 frigate) and for air defence we had the type 42 destroyer (and now the type 45)

    the US never really had any dedicated sub hunter.

    t
    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I suspect the later Russian antiship missile systems have been designed with the Aegis system in mind.

    However,the main problem is the Russian systems have long antiship missile range,so they can easily shoot out of the range of the US ship's ability to attack them. The Slava class also have a derivative of the SA10 system in naval form - probably not as advanced as what the US ship has but is also long range.

    We also don't know what kind of land based air defences the Russians have deployed on their own bases.

    I found this on Google:

    http://www.kommersant.com/photo/max/.../007/map_1.gif



    OFC,I cannot vouch for its accuracy now as its from 2005.

    Krasnodar Airbase is the HQ of the 1st Composite Air Division and 461st Assault Aviation Regiment and the Krasnodar Military Aviation Institute.

    It appears to host Su25 ground attack aircraft and it appears to be a major flight training location,ie,trainer versions of the SU27 and Mig29 and aircraft like the YAK130.





    OFC,this assumes the Russian systems are fully operational.



    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    the George HW Bush (and strike group) is in the med - that's carrier strike group 2 (complete) - with 3 tico`s and 5 arleigh burkes and 1 ohp

    you`ve also got the Bataan and her group off near spain - that's another carrier and 2 LHD`s.


    a lot of firepower if needed.






    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    you seem to think that 1 magic missile and POOF the carrier is gone...

    im no misquoting you - (want a job with RT today??) , in every war for the last 50 years , all equipment hasn't worked as the maker advertised - USA stealth drones being overridden by Russian kit and landed in iran , Israel overflying everyone with USA kit - missiles not tracking/shooting/hitting in various middle east and african countries or CIWS not working against sea skimmers.

    I`ve already said , quite a lot , the USA wont go into Ukraine , and the Ukrainians don't want them - they are day 5 of calling in there reserves - 5 more days and you`ll have a force of retrained , of up to a million Ukrainian troops with equipment. if they do want to fight they can do it.

    USA is flying the flag - sticking and Arleigh Burke is a message - it could sink a few ships and play tag with any aircraft and sea skimmers , but they wont start anything!


    its brinksmanship - and now down to the Ukrainians.
    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    RT was a jibe based on your stance - USA carriers are ubotanium and Russian missiles guided by impossibilium so they cant miss.


    putin has *basically said* he wont allow Ukraine to join nato


    edit:

    wasn't putin:
    Yes you are misquoting me. Your the one conflating about US carrier groups not me,and your tone indicated the Russians had no chance. I said that a single US ship won't be a threat,and even a carrier group is not enough,which is true. It would be true for China and India too.

    Even the UK and France.

    The thread of MAD would be though.

    This is why the US would never attack Russia and neither will Russia. It will always be via proxy.

    So for the sakes of not going around in circles. US carrier groups are made of ubotanium and even dropping the moon on them will not cause a dent. Done.

    Also,RT?? So you don't like what I say and I am now paid off. Keep to the argument at hand.



    Edit!!

    Answer this question.

    Can the UK,France,Russia or China take out or damage a US carrier group??

    Yes??
    No??
    Maybe??

    Thats all I want to know at this point.

    Because I believe any superpower can,even if they suffer heavy casualities.

    I don't consider them invincible against another superpower.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 06-03-2014 at 01:58 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    The whole USA vs Russia thing is irrelevant IMO. Apart from a bit of heavy breathing, the US won’t get involved militarily, no matter what Russia do providing those actions are confined to within the Ukraine. Sanctions maybe, but nothing more.

    What I do find interesting is, throughout this whole thread, if someone states they can understand (whilst not necessarily agreeing with) Russia’s viewpoint, they are sympathisers. If someone says that people are underestimating Russian capabilities, they are on putins payroll. Does the West’s propaganda machine really extend to the Hexus forums?!

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    it seems we have rolled back to the 1980`s and the `game of chess` with or without magic weapons that cannot be killed and don't miss

    cat - there is an edit button you know.....

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    The problem is just the amount of weapons in that region. I think if the Russians could fire enough of them,one might accidentally hit FFS. Nobody doubts US tech superiority - with $500 billion+ spend on defence each year,you would suspect that!


    Plus I would be terrified if the Russians and US went directly to war over anything - it could easily get out of hand.

    Both countries are proud and have a lot of nationalist sentiment. Backtracking from the ancient enemy would be seen as a loss of face.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    My father in law in sevastopol is saying there is little support to join Russia! but what can they do.

    I said they need to protest before it's illegal, if it's not already illegal to protest. even then a fair vote ? not going to happen. After the referendum any Ukrainian - Tartar - Turkish protestors will be arrested like they are in Russia.

    Good bye liberty in Eastern Europe!
    Putin won't stop until stopped! I don't want a fight, but I fear Putin won't stop at Crimea the Ukrainians will have no choice but to fight, Poland will be dragged in followed by Turkey / NATO.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    the swedes showed how `vulnerable` a carrier can be - 1 AIP boat sank both a carrier and 2 escorts in exercise a few years back and the USA didn't even know they were there! a lot of the skills from the 80`s - dedicated sub hunting have been left to diminish - the SOSUS warning net for example in the GIUK gap .

    so if you want to kill a carrier - you send 1 sub at it , forget swarms of missiles as they have a huge line of who sent them

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    The whole USA vs Russia thing is irrelevant IMO. Apart from a bit of heavy breathing, the US won’t get involved militarily, no matter what Russia do providing those actions are confined to within the Ukraine. Sanctions maybe, but nothing more.

    What I do find interesting is, throughout this whole thread, if someone states they can understand (whilst not necessarily agreeing with) Russia’s viewpoint, they are sympathisers. If someone says that people are underestimating Russian capabilities, they are on putins payroll. Does the West’s propaganda machine really extend to the Hexus forums?!
    This is not 2 points of view in a normal argument. The west and almost the entire world is looking at this with very little bias. and the Russians are pushing an agenda with very very little substance while stoking the fire.

    People seem to be buying it. You said the government in Kiev was not legitimate yourself. If you believe that then you are buying the Russian FUD. Heck the Russians have still not admitted any troops are outside their bases. It's a white wash with the politicians and the Russian media all together in the lies. I saw this coming a mile off.
    Last edited by peterb; 06-03-2014 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Please observe acceptable language conventions

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    My father in law in sevastopol is saying there is little support to join Russia! but what can they do.

    I said they need to protest before it's illegal, if it's not already illegal to protest. even then a fair vote ? not going to happen. After the referendum any Ukrainian - Tartar - Turkish protestors will be arrested like they are in Russia.

    Good bye liberty in Eastern Europe!
    Putin won't stop until stopped! I don't want a fight, but I fear Putin won't stop at Crimea the Ukrainians will have no choice but to fight, Poland will be dragged in followed by Turkey / NATO.
    I could possbly see the Crimea part,but beyond that the Russian forces would become overextended. On top of this they might have some support in Crimea with nearly 60% Russians,but the rest of the country with much less than?? Plus Crimea has military and economic importance for Russia.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/heres...-europe-2014-3



    If you question the strategic location of Ukraine, check out this map that Agence France-Presse made last in December — two months before protesters in Kiev forced President Viktor Yanukovych out of office.
    They could route pipelines through there instead,and reduce the number going through the Ukraine itself.

    This conflict seems more about securing the naval bases in the Crimea, and making sure Russian gas pipelines can be routed as much through Russian territory and pro-Russian countries as much as possible. It still not right of course,but those are the reasons IMHO.

    Plus of course wars are expensive.

    The 5 day war in Georgia cost just over $500 million.

    A much larger scale war would cost billions of dollars,potentially tens of billions of dollars.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 06-03-2014 at 02:27 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    The world isn't in isolation as it was in the 80`s - action and reaction. Russia and the usa could be hit from economics just as much as bombs to hurt just as badly

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    This is not 2 points of view in a normal argument. The west and almost the entire world is looking at this with very little bias. and the Russians are pushing an agenda with very very little substance while stoking the fire.
    The problem is, you seem to have an inability to grasp that the West is just as capable of spinning things whichever way suits them. States are always looking at things with Bias; Bias towards their own states benefit. If that weren’t the case, every state would be involved in every conflict one way or another. That is not to say that Russia are right, I don’t think they are. But dismissing their viewpoint as irrelevant has led to where we are now.

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    People seem to be buying it. You said the government in Kiev was not legitimate yourself. If you believe that then you are buying the Russian FUD. Heck the Russians have still not admitted any troops are outside their bases. It's a white wash with the politicians and the Russian media all together in the lies. I saw this coming a mile off.
    I don’t believe the Government in Kiev is legitimate, not in the true sense of the world, but that’s not because of anything Russia has said; It's because I have informed myself about what is going on there, from all sorts of different sources, and formed my own opinion.

    You keep banging on about ‘Most’ and the ‘West’ etc…. so, hypothetically, should a referendum take place in Crimera, observed by independent observers and deemed to be fair, and the vote goes to joining Russia, would you support that decision? Or should democracy only be used when you get a result you want?

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    The world isn't in isolation as it was in the 80`s - action and reaction. Russia and the usa could be hit from economics just as much as bombs to hurt just as badly
    This is probably what is going to happen.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Chances of the area fragmenting / devolving into pro-West and pro-Russian areas? Seems like Russia/Putin is pushing for control of certain militarily important areas which happen to have ethnically Russian people as a majority. Don't know enough about population dispersal to know if the Ukraine could split.

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