MEP Elections

[wasabi]

Or train/educate for a better job. If the minimum wage isn't enough then campaign for a living wage. Isolationism/protectionism isn't the solution.

'campaign for a living wage'? i.e. Labour party borrows money we can't afford to pay back to subsidise you.

i don't see why we can't have the best of both worlds. Allow working visas for several years to get the cheap / flexible Labour, but not give what is effectively citizen-level permanent residency rights to all of Europe. Our town is already overcrowded, traffic at a gridlock, slummy identikit new estates popping up all over the place. And massive swathes of E. Europeans still piling in.

[kalniel]

'campaign for a living wage'? i.e. Labour party borrows money we can't afford to pay back to subsidise you.

? Why would companies paying higher wages increase govt. borrowing?

[scaryjim]

Yes, I'm sure the 1% of the UK population who are working EU citizens is the root of all our problems. Or is it perhaps the tiny minority that are being vilified to further the political careers of people who basically don't do their job?

I don't know how true it is, but there's a picture going round on facebook at the minute that claims Farrage only went to one meeting (out of 42) of the EU fisheries commission when he was a member of it. If I spent five years in a job and missed 41 meetings - of any kind - then I doubt I'd still have that job at the end of the five years. Sadly, what party politics and democratic government managed is to give him a huge mandate for continuing to basically not do his job - which is representing his country in the EU parliament. UKIP's campaign was all about giving the UK its voice back, but what's he going to do with it now he's got it? Is he going to engage with the EU and actually fight for a better deal for the UK, or is he going to stand outside calling the EU names? I have a sneaking suspicion which it is, and the only possible outcome from that is that the UK gets further screwed over within the EU. Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies....

[Andy3536]

Yes, I'm sure the 1% of the UK population who are working EU citizens is the root of all our problems. Or is it perhaps the tiny minority that are being vilified to further the political careers of people who basically don't do their job?

I don't know how true it is, but there's a picture going round on facebook at the minute that claims Farrage only went to one meeting (out of 42) of the EU fisheries commission when he was a member of it. If I spent five years in a job and missed 41 meetings - of any kind - then I doubt I'd still have that job at the end of the five years. Sadly, what party politics and democratic government managed is to give him a huge mandate for continuing to basically not do his job - which is representing his country in the EU parliament. UKIP's campaign was all about giving the UK its voice back, but what's he going to do with it now he's got it? Is he going to engage with the EU and actually fight for a better deal for the UK, or is he going to stand outside calling the EU names? I have a sneaking suspicion which it is, and the only possible outcome from that is that the UK gets further screwed over within the EU. Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies....

Well, Farrage is the only recognisable face of UKIP. What was he doing? Probably being the face of UKIP for some such event in the UK or appearing on some TV show/radio. Now admittedly, this means he wasn't nessesarily doing his job, but Farrage is UKIP, without him, and without his lobbying and being a present face in the UK then UKIP would not have anything like the votes thay now have.

Would he change that considering the votes they now have, and the increase on votes they've had over the last few years? I doubt it, and there was always someone sent in his place apparently. And just what can they do? MEPs can't actually do much at all.
But Farrage wouldn't stand outside calling them names, he's been doing that for years inside the EU parliment.



Just incase your wondering, you shouldn't be laughing ;-)

[Saracen]

Yes, I'm sure the 1% of the UK population who are working EU citizens is the root of all our problems. Or is it perhaps the tiny minority that are being vilified to further the political careers of people who basically don't do their job?

I don't know how true it is, but there's a picture going round on facebook at the minute that claims Farrage only went to one meeting (out of 42) of the EU fisheries commission when he was a member of it. If I spent five years in a job and missed 41 meetings - of any kind - then I doubt I'd still have that job at the end of the five years. Sadly, what party politics and democratic government managed is to give him a huge mandate for continuing to basically not do his job - which is representing his country in the EU parliament. UKIP's campaign was all about giving the UK its voice back, but what's he going to do with it now he's got it? Is he going to engage with the EU and actually fight for a better deal for the UK, or is he going to stand outside calling the EU names? I have a sneaking suspicion which it is, and the only possible outcome from that is that the UK gets further screwed over within the EU. Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies....

What, though, is the job of an elected politician? Representing the people that elected him/her.

Why did people vote UKIP? Presumably, to endorse the stance UKIP has taken, largely on the EU. Which, it has to be said, isn't to help the EU run, or to help it implement policy. It's to try to curtail the reach of the EU, or get the UK out of it. After all, UKIPs policy position on the EU isn't exactly a secret. It's most of the reason they exist.

[scaryjim]

What, though, is the job of an elected politician? Representing the people that elected him/her. ....

I'd add "in the forum for which they were standing" to that definition, personally.

As MEPs they *can't* take the UK out of the EU. So while I accept that representing their electorate will involve working to limit the powers of the EP where possible, surely getting a better deal for the UK where they can't limit those powers seems like the sensible second option? I don't see how not turning up could possibly be construed as representing anyone (particularly to a committee that could have direct impact on a major industry of the country you are representing).

Unless, of course, he was trying to represent the 64% of the population that didn't vote in the last round of European elections...?

[Andy3536]

I'd add "in the forum for which they were standing" to that definition, personally.

As MEPs they *can't* take the UK out of the EU. So while I accept that representing their electorate will involve working to limit the powers of the EP where possible, surely getting a better deal for the UK where they can't limit those powers seems like the sensible second option? I don't see how not turning up could possibly be construed as representing anyone (particularly to a committee that could have direct impact on a major industry of the country you are representing).

Unless, of course, he was trying to represent the 64% of the population that didn't vote in the last round of European elections...?

I think the general opinion is that no matter what MEPs you vote for, and no matter what ones get in. They can't, and won't change the course of policy. Only the EU commision can introduce new laws and policys, them we do not vote for.
The idea of sending UKIP MEPs to the parliment is more of a protest at an undemocratic union. (at least in my view)

[wasabi]

I'd add "in the forum for which they were standing" to that definition, personally.

As MEPs they *can't* take the UK out of the EU. So while I accept that representing their electorate will involve working to limit the powers of the EP where possible, surely getting a better deal for the UK where they can't limit those powers seems like the sensible second option? I don't see how not turning up could possibly be construed as representing anyone (particularly to a committee that could have direct impact on a major industry of the country you are representing).

UKIP is there to be a spoiler. That is what they were elected to do. They could be a bit more British about it though and start filibustering.

[opel80uk]

Our town is already overcrowded, traffic at a gridlock, slummy identikit new estates popping up all over the place. And massive swathes of E. Europeans still piling in.

They said similar when the Irish were coming over in their droves. You're from Ireland are you not, or did I imagine you telling me that once?

[opel80uk]

Sadly, I'm not sure they'll react like that. I've seen quite a few politicians from existing parties say they've got to work harder to get their message across. Sadiq Khan was one, and Danny Alexander another. One, I forget who, actually said thay've got to "try harder, and turn up the volume".

They seem to think this UKIP surge is because the people aren't hearing the politician's message, when in fact the problem is that politicians aren't hearing the people's message.

They are, in fact, collectively doing the political equivalent of an Ostrich burying it's head in the sand. Trouble is, burying your head in the sand tends to leave a tender spot perfectly exposed as a target for a good kicking. After this kicking, you'd think they might just get a hint of the message .... especially the LibDems, who've basically just had their collectively behinds kicked hard enough that it ended up around their ears.

I mean, just one (unless they sneak another past Scottish voters) MEP survived, and that one by a small margin, it seems.

But the mainstream parties will, if this is not just a reactionary vote but a genuine sea change in the way people will vote in the future, have to eventually understand that it's what they are saying, not how loud they are saying it, that needs to be reassessed. If they don't, well they can't say the writing wasn't on the wall for them.

[Saracen]

I'd add "in the forum for which they were standing" to that definition, personally.

As MEPs they *can't* take the UK out of the EU. So while I accept that representing their electorate will involve working to limit the powers of the EP where possible, surely getting a better deal for the UK where they can't limit those powers seems like the sensible second option? I don't see how not turning up could possibly be construed as representing anyone (particularly to a committee that could have direct impact on a major industry of the country you are representing).

Unless, of course, he was trying to represent the 64% of the population that didn't vote in the last round of European elections...?

Well, the 64% that didn't vote can't complain. They had the same chance as everyone else, and chose not to use it. So they get what they get.

The same logic could be applied to just about any general election. Say, Blair's '97 "landslide". He got, what, roughly 40% ... of those voting. Which was 55-60% ish of the electorate. So 60% of those that voted voted for someone else, and 40-45% didn't vote at all. I haven't done the calculation for a whike, but I seem to remember Blair getting that "mandate", for example to agree to Lisbon, on about 22% of the electorate.

UKIP MEPs have the same electoral mandate as, say LibDem MEPs .... sorry, MEP, ....that is, represent to ethos of the party that people voted for, in the way they feel best. How many times have you heard Westminster MPs say they're elected as representatives, nor delegates, their to use THEIR judgement of the UKs best interests.

I'm sure UKIP would argue about whether showing up is the best way to represent the UK. Maybe they'd argue that that, given the EuroParluament make-up, them showing up and voting "no" will make zero difference, and therefore their time can best be used in other ways. I've also seen considerable dissent between other parties making allegations about UKIP attendence, and UKIPs claims on that.

Either way, this election should sent a very clear message. UKIP, firmly anti-EU, doing unprecedentedly well. LibDems, unashamedly and loudly pro-EU .... roundly clobbered, and very nearly eliminated entirely, at EU level. And given the near neck and neck between Labour and Tory, you can add a considerable degree of Tory Euroscepticism, at least to the extent and nature of the EU, to UKIP's wanting out.

It's hard to argue to election result is an endorsement of the EU status quo, let alone "ever closer integration". Of course, elections are never entirely single issue, or single motivation, so too much can't be inferred either. That's what referenda are for. Strange we've been taken from a trade group (Common Market) to "ever closer (political) integration", or on both Churchill and Viviane Reddings words, a United States of Europe, without us, the people, ever being asked, don'tcha think?

The only way to kipper UKIP is to hold that referendum. If it goes 'out' then act on it and we leave. UKIPs reason for existence disappears, and it's the will of the people. If it goes "stay in" then THAT is the will of the people and, pardon mixing food metaphors, but UKIPs goose is cooked. Either way, a referendum cuts UKIPs ground from under it.

And, the three Westminster parties could start that in progress tomorrow. But will they? Don't hold your breath.

[wasabi]

They said similar when the Irish were coming over in their droves. You're from Ireland are you not, or did I imagine you telling me that once?

You're confusing me with someone who thinks that a mistake made in the past means that future generations must keep making the same mistake over and over to avoid admitting they were wrong.

[opel80uk]

You're confusing me with someone who thinks that a mistake made in the past means that future generations must keep making the same mistake over and over to avoid admitting they were wrong.

Or, if indeed I am right and you did tell me you grew up in Ireland, someone who was able to benefit from an open border with the UK but, now in, wants to close it to others. In other words, a hypocrite.

Regardless, the notion of immigration into the UK, specifically from the EU, being 'a mistake' is subjective; I'm yet to hear or read a convincing argument against immigration that doesn't have, at the very least, undertones of racism at it's core. Unfortunate but predictable.

[Saracen]

Or, if indeed I am right and you did tell me you grew up in Ireland, someone who was able to benefit from an open border with the UK but, now in, wants to close it to others. In other words, a hypocrite.

Regardless, the notion of immigration into the UK, specifically from the EU, being 'a mistake' is subjective; I'm yet to hear or read a convincing argument against immigration that doesn't have, at the very least, undertones of racism at it's core. Unfortunate but predictable.

The argument isn't against immigration. It's against uncontrolled immigration.

If you can control immigration, then you can set it at a level that does not put undue stresses on infrastructure, like school places, etc, and instead settle on a level that allows proper absorption into communities. You can also select who gets in, according to national need. For instance, if we need midwives and structural engineers, you put more points onto those professions than you do on, say, architects, when you have a surfeit of architects, and qualification for admission depends on points.

So, a black midwife or asian structural engineer gets in, but a white architect doesn't. And in neither the selection of who does, or who does not get in is race a factor.

What you have is controlled immigration, ser at a level (which can change year on year) to suit need, with a points-based system designed to meet shortages, and not inflate surpluses any further.

In no sense is that racist, whether the immigrant is from the EU or not.

[wasabi]

Interesting/shocking to me is the traditionally very socialist and presumed pro-Euro France has gone Eurosceptic too . See here Interesting times.

[kalniel]

Interesting/shocking to me is the traditionally very socialist and presumed pro-Euro France has gone Eurosceptic too . See here Interesting times.

The far right movement (and iirc, it's more extreme than something like ukip) has been growing in France for some time now, but previously they've been dismissed as not to be taken seriously.