View Poll Results: Brexit - Eligible/Ineligible, In, Out or Undecided?

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  • Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'IN' ('Remain')

    65 41.94%
  • Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'OUT'

    53 34.19%
  • Eligible to Vote - Undecided

    29 18.71%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'IN' ('Remain') If I could

    4 2.58%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'OUT' if I could.

    4 2.58%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would be undecided right now.

    0 0%
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Thread: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

  1. #305
    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    That's not entirely true. BAE builds the Eurofighter sub-assemblies, and complete our own aircraft with assemblies from other countries. But there's also Rolls-Royce who build engines. A lot of engines. 787, A380 and the new A350 all flew their maiden flights with engines built in Britain. There is no European competitor, only GE. The British Aerospace industry is incredibly healthy.
    If you look what the 1957 defence white paper did - a government based decision which essentially doomed all UK based fighter projects to an early death. The Harrier was only strung along as an oddity and probably saved by the US interest in it,the Bucaneer was too far along the line,and the TSR2 was canceled due to bickering in the UK government and military. Aircraft like the VC10 and Trident were hampered by our government putting stupid stipulations on engines and so on. Due to that Boeing hit pay dirt with the 727. That put paid to any real indigenous plans for large airliners.

    The French built the first Mirage which was partially copied off a Fairey design which was tested in France. The Kestrel(which the Harrier was meant more as a test bed for the VTOL technology) was cancelled. That was a monumental eff up - loads of countries bought the Mirage III since it was supersonic.

    The French have sold the better part of 3000 Mirage fighters since then. Even the Jaguar which was around 550 aircraft was co-developed with Breguet Aviation.

    The French fighter industry and aviation industry is far more healthier than the UK one which only has had one proper indigenous trainer/fighter in the last 35 years. Even our commercial aircraft industry pales in comparison with the French. The few designs which built in any number into the 80s and 90s were off shoots of 50s and 60s designs.

    Airbus is essentially French led and so is Arianespace. FFS,if you look at the Europa project,the UK had some of the best rocket engine designs in Europe. After our lot decided,we don't need a space launch programme,most of those people went and worked at NASA and Arianespace.

    The US had the monopoly on large commercial aircraft and commercial satellite launching. The French government were savvy enough to invest in their industry so they could challenge them - our governments were half hearted and half arsed about the whole thing. No direction - just all of the political parties bickering.

    Our car industries are more of the same. Look at Eurocopter.

    Sure we have Westland and my family knew their chief test pilot who did the world record attempt with the BERP rotor system,but the mindshare of companies like Eurocopter partly based on companies like Aérospatiale is hard to get over.

    Decades of poor government and commercial management has left our aeronautics industry,more as a parts provider for other countries aircraft.

    Yes,it makes money but still?

    Look at how we even get less money out of the F35 programme than Italy does,since we gave up work share so we had greater access to the software,which the US tried to then cheat us out of.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    The UK did cooperate with Germany, Italy and Spain on the EuroFighter/Typhoon, but the French went off by themselves and developed their Rafale Fighter looking after their own interests, but no one criticises them for doing so, for going it alone. The British no doubt would have got regular reminders that we could have been a part of "something great" if we had done what the French did.

    As recently as 2012, France's Dassault Aviation undercut the Eurofighter/Typhoon countries in a deal with India. It just feels like double standards to me.
    But the issue,is the UK had the capacity to do all of this itself - we sadly don't really anymore,as all the stupid governmental decisions destroyed the aviation industry - it was death by a 1000 cuts,starting in the 1950s with blithering idiots in our government.

    If our governments had invested more into our aeronautics industries from the 60s onwards we have had more high technology manufacturing in this country which is less of an issue for expensive products like aircraft and carrier rockets when it comes to labour costs.

    We went from the most developed aeronautics industry in Europe the 50s(in many ways),to the French being able to build an entire Fighter line,business jets,and have the Lions share of things like commercial jets.

    We cannot even build a nuclear power plant anymore without external help.

    I really hope with Reaction Engines Limited,the government does continue providing funding for that. That is something which is world beating and we could build it here. I hope it is not farmed over to another country when they get the design perfected.

    Like I said it's something I could argue about until the cows come home so probably don't want to go on a tangent with this.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 10-05-2016 at 12:19 AM.

  2. #306
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Cat

    Let's be honest... the death of manufacturing in this country is due to a combination of poor Government, incompetent Management and antithetical Unions, combined with an underlying arrogance "that we can sit on our arses and still be the best" across the board.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    I agree that the Government cannot be solely blamed, and that the British public in general also had a hand in it. Not just in manufacturing, but in the nature of a democracy, Governments are going to be reluctant to do the "right thing" if it effects too many people (e.g. pensions) until they have no choice, because it will then effect their chances of getting re-elected at the next election.

    Humans are selfish, greedy, lazy, and in large numbers, make idiotic choices normally...

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Matt cartoons do make me chuckle now and again!



    Even the Remainers have got to smirk over this one!

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    I'm still mildly perplexed at how much focus is placed on trying to figure out whether problem are or are not the fault of being in the EU - particularly when it's clear that they're all complex issue with no nice, tidy answer, and especially when the bigger issues, and ones with more definite arguments, are neglected. It's like some sort of pervasive distraction.

    I don't expect leaving the EU to fix any problems on the issue of the economy or immigration or anything else. I do expect it to give us the full ability and responsibility to set to work at fixing it, or thoroughly screw it up further. It's about having both the right, the freedom, and the power to be responsible for one's own policies and performance in any given area.

    Additionally, on the EU side of things, it's about not having to adopt the Euro and enter a single currency with the EU, and not having to be subject to the votes of people who don't live the UK, or un-elected European officials, or the corruption that is rife in the EU. I don't want greater and greater political, monetary, legal ... union with the EU. I want the UK to have the right to define what the UK is and will be and set its own course. Primarily because, without that, all other discussions are rendered far less relevant, and in some cases, potentially irrelevant.

    It's similar to saying, "I want simply to live as an adult with full responsibility and rights to manage my household as I and my family please, and I do not want to live in a commune where someone else gets to decide the spending, rules, regulations in my household."

    How do people not realise that this is the central issue here and what's at stake?
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  9. #310
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Borrowed from BBC Website...


    The European Union is a "force for social injustice" which backs "the haves rather than the have-nots", Iain Duncan Smith has said.

    The ex-work and pensions secretary said "uncontrolled migration" drove down wages and increased the cost of living.

    He appealed to people "who may have done OK from the EU" to "think about the people that haven't".

    But Labour's Alan Johnson said the EU protected workers and stopped them from being "exploited".

    The former Labour home secretary accused the Leave campaign of dismissing such protections as "red tape".



    So if we vote remain does that mean we can do away with the Labour Party, seeing as clearly they did nothing for workers rights whilst in power and it is all down to the EU?
    Last edited by SeriousSam; 10-05-2016 at 01:24 PM. Reason: the to they & deleted duplicate word
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    It's similar to saying, "I want simply to live as an adult with full responsibility and rights to manage my household as I and my family please, and I do not want to live in a commune where someone else gets to decide the spending, rules, regulations in my household."

    How do people not realise that this is the central issue here and what's at stake?
    People, I think, in the main do realise that this is the central issue. The problem is deciding whether their 'family' constitutes just the UK, or those in the EU.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    People, I think, in the main do realise that this is the central issue. The problem is deciding whether their 'family' constitutes just the UK, or those in the EU.
    Spot on as far as I am concerned.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    People, I think, in the main do realise that this is the central issue. The problem is deciding whether their 'family' constitutes just the UK, or those in the EU.
    Interesting take. However, within the analogy the central distinction is between being able to run one's own household or live in a communal one. Whereas one could see 'the commune' as one's own family and household there would remain, nevertheless, a strong distinction in terms of the nature of those two 'households'. Thus the question for some, might be better stated as, do I prefer to live in a commune with less say over how the household is governed and more is dictated to me or do I prefer to pursue more freedom, rights, and responsibilities in running my own household?

    And, of course, one would want to consider the particular realities and goals of the actual 'households' in consideration

    Nevertheless, it's essentially a question about the nature of the household in which one lives, or significant changes to the nature of that household, how it is and is to be run - and not simply about the success of any given 'policy' such as the economy or immigration.
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    People, I think, in the main do realise that this is the central issue. The problem is deciding whether their 'family' constitutes just the UK, or those in the EU.
    Speaking from personal experience there is "Family" and there is "family". You'll come to the aid of the latter because they are family, but the former are those you're happy to spend time with on a regular basis. In a way it sums up my view on the situation;

    Family = England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

    family = European countries

    Of course it does raise the question of how does Europe view us in the family context... clearly in a lot of cases it is "family" but they want to keep regular ties for other reasons. Certainly if we left the free trade bloc would lose a lot more "family" arguments.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Interesting take. However, within the analogy the central distinction is between being able to run one's own household or live in a communal one. Whereas one could see 'the commune' as one's own family and household there would remain, nevertheless, a strong distinction in terms of the nature of those two 'households'. Thus the question for some, might be better stated as, do I prefer to live in a commune with less say over how the household is governed and more is dictated to me or do I prefer to pursue more freedom, rights, and responsibilities in running my own household?

    And, of course, one would want to consider the particular realities and goals of the actual 'households' in consideration

    Nevertheless, it's essentially a question about the nature of the household in which one lives, or significant changes to the nature of that household, how it is and is to be run - and not simply about the success of any given 'policy' such as the economy or immigration.

    But that is making the, IMO, wrong assumption that what the system the UK already has in place can be likened to running your own household. It can't. For example, 63% of voters did not vote for the Party that has a majority in the House of Commons. We can't, by and large, vote on who sits in the House of Lords. We can't, or have not yet been afforded, the right to choose our Head of State. 4M UKIP voters ended up with 1 Member of Parliament, as opposed to the 1.5M SNP voters who got 56. The notion that 'we' would have control of our household is wrong. We wouldn't – the main political parties, within a system that is almost entirely geared towards sustaining them, would have control.

    Arguing that we should leave the EU because of immigration, or economics etc, I understand. But arguing for leaving, or in fact remaining in, the EU for democratic, or soverign reasons is, IMO, akin to 2 bald blokes fighting over a comb, and the distinction that you claim above just doesn't seem that apparent to me. For me, the choice can be summed up by the following:

    Stay in EU – Decisions will be made by those that the majority of voters didn't vote for
    Leave the EU – Decisions will still be made by those that the majority of voters didn't vote for


    Most households, unless occupied by one person, will at many times be simply a microcosm of a commune; it's the nature of living with people. If we wanted complete control of the household, and make all the decisions, we would only ever live on our own. But there is always a price to pay in living a more insular life – especially when, as we see now globally, our environments are becoming increasingly smaller.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    I'm still mildly perplexed at how much focus is placed on trying to figure out whether problem are or are not the fault of being in the EU - particularly when it's clear that they're all complex issue with no nice, tidy answer, and especially when the bigger issues, and ones with more definite arguments, are neglected. It's like some sort of pervasive distraction.
    I'm guessing it's because if the "problems" are the fault of the EU then people can point to that as a reason for leaving, if the "problems" are the fault of our own mismanagement then people can point to that as a reason for staying, who, after all, would want mismanagement on a greater scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    I don't expect leaving the EU to fix any problems on the issue of the economy or immigration or anything else. I do expect it to give us the full ability and responsibility to set to work at fixing it, or thoroughly screw it up further. It's about having both the right, the freedom, and the power to be responsible for one's own policies and performance in any given area.
    And when or if the people with the responsibility screw it up further what then? What if in a dystopian future a far left or right party is given that responsibility by the electorate, that's not some crazy never going to happen idea when you consider UKIP had a 12.7% share of the vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    It's similar to saying, "I want simply to live as an adult with full responsibility and rights to manage my household as I and my family please, and I do not want to live in a commune where someone else gets to decide the spending, rules, regulations in my household."
    Only it's not is it because in your analogy your not the head of the house, you're living in a commune that's part of a bigger commune.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousSam View Post

    Family = England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

    family = European countries.
    And that's the bit I don't really get – Why a border, which is simply a man made construct specifically, and literally, designed to provide a division, determines who is 'Family' and who is 'family'. It certainly doesn't to me.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    as this draws out further and further... it seems to me the facts become harder to grasp.

    the sheer complexity of this is why Churchill said this
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir W Churchill
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
    I'm beginning to think the general public, aided and abetted by all forms of media, is sinking into a state of outright utter blummin' confusion.

    I know I am.

    I shall carry on then trying to improve my place in life within the confines set by those in control, whether they be British, European ... or more likely.... financial markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    For me, there is my actual family, and "family" which encompass other decent human beings.

    I wouldn't come to the aid of someone -just- because they are British, but I also may come to the aid of someone who is.. or isn't British.

    I suppose that I am also guilty of a "us" and "them" mentality but it is not constrained by national borders but values I consider less arbitrary.

    I get that the concept of countries and national borders aren't going to go away anytime soon if ever, and your classification may be more representative of reality.

    But I suppose that our values is shaped by our background and mine leads me to prefer ideal of ever closer ties between nations and between humankinds.

    Edit:

    I find myself having a lot in common with opel80uk on this, including the part about:

    Stay in EU – Decisions will be made by those that the majority of voters didn't vote for
    Leave the EU – Decisions will still be made by those that the majority of voters didn't vote for
    Given that, I just want the policy makers to be competent. Not saying that those in Brussels are more competent than those in Wesminster.. but I feel like we may as well flip a coin as it could go either way.
    Last edited by TooNice; 10-05-2016 at 06:04 PM.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    And that's the bit I don't really get – Why a border, which is simply a man made construct specifically, and literally, designed to provide a division, determines who is 'Family' and who is 'family'. It certainly doesn't to me.
    Family = Anglo Saxon law, family = Roman law; the border is merely a convenient delineation between the two.

    So ultimately it does come down to ideology and how that impinges on cultural identity. We in Britain are the way we are because we have lived under a set of legal principles for over a thousand years, with the same being true (mostly) for Europe. There are commonalities which is why we should remain part of Europe, but also significant differences which are inconsistent with remaining in the EU.

    I know this doesn't matter to some and I accept that, but to me it is one of the reasons we punch far above our weight... especially in regards to science and philosophy. It also doesn't mean that their way is wrong, merely different, and in some respects "vive la difference" don't quash it out of some misguided fear.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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