Catalan Parliament Declares independance from Spain

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Wouldn't it be easier for people to try and do what Scotland do and just be patient about this and eventually get a proper vote and see what happens??

'A proper vote' is what this was.

Which vote am I against, again?

A one which is internationally verified by observers,where ballots are sealed,etc and people can vote in total confidence. If you read some of the stuff in Spain,people admitted they voted more than once at ballot boxes. People who said they wanted to vote for staying in the country have said they stayed away. You don't believe me - read some of the news coming out from Spain.

You sound exactly like the Scottish nationalists,who were so sure they didn't need a vote to leave the UK,but in the end when the vote happened,the jingoism wasn't as nearly big as expected.

You seem utterly worried,at my suggestion that such a normal vote be done,and that we should take a disputed voted made by 38.7% of the population and with nearly 50% of their own DEMOCRATICALLY elected parliament abstaining from voting too.

The fact you don't seem to understand why voting needs to be policed properly is very worrying indeed,especially when in many countries such votes are mocked in the US and UK when certain parties get abnormally high votes in elections.

Its another case of one set of logic for one situation and one set of logic for another.

For a person who shouts democracy all the time,its surprising that you don't seem to support transparency in the voting process.

Simply thinking "I CBA waiting" - not a good enough excuse in life.

[pp05]

'A proper vote' is what this was. The Spanish Government wouldn't allow any other kind of vote. This isn't like Scotland. The United Kingdom should be first in line to recognise Catalonia as an independent country, representing our values of democracy and self-determination. Of course, these values are thrown aside far too quickly by the EU.

The path here is that without support from the UN, there will be martial law, followed by an insurgency, Basque independence, and the Balkanization of Spain (which is probably the inevitable result). If the EU still stood for anything, they should be acting to support a peaceful transition.

Isn't the issue that the referendum was illegal.

If that's the case then the Spanish govt have every right to use force to stop what they deem illegal.

[pp05]

A one which is internationally verified by observers,where ballots are sealed,etc and people can vote in total confidence. If you read some of the stuff in Spain,people admitted they voted more than once at ballot boxes. People who said they wanted to vote for staying in the country have said they stayed away. You don't believe me - read some of the news coming out from Spain.

You sound exactly like the Scottish nationalists,who were so sure they didn't need a vote to leave the UK,but in the end when the vote happened,the jingoism wasn't as nearly big as expected.

You seem utterly worried,at my suggestion that such a normal vote be done,and that we should take a disputed voted made by 38.7% of the population and with nearly 50% of their own DEMOCRATICALLY elected parliament abstaining from voting too.

The fact you don't seem to understand why voting needs to be policed properly is very worrying indeed,especially when in many countries such votes are mocked in the US and UK when certain parties get abnormally high votes in elections.

Its another case of one set of logic for one situation and one set of logic for another.

For a person who shouts democracy all the time,its surprising that you don't seem to support transparency in the voting process.

Simply thinking "I CBA waiting" - not a good enough excuse in life.

I've heard from people who call themselves Catalonian that the education system teaches kids from a young age they are Catalonian, not Spanish.

[TeePee]

A one which is internationally verified by observers,where ballots are sealed,etc and people can vote in total confidence. If you read some of the stuff in Spain,people admitted they voted more than once at ballot boxes. People who said they wanted to vote for staying in the country have said they stayed away. You don't believe me - read some of the news coming out from Spain.

You sound exactly like the Scottish nationalists,who were so sure they didn't need a vote to leave the UK,but in the end when the vote happened,the jingoism wasn't as nearly big as expected.

You seem utterly worried,at my suggestion that such a normal vote be done,and that we should take a disputed voted made by 38.7% of the population and with nearly 50% of their own DEMOCRATICALLY elected parliament abstaining from voting too.

The fact you don't seem to understand why voting needs to be policed properly is very worrying indeed,especially when in many countries such votes are mocked in the US and UK when certain parties get abnormally high votes in elections.

Its another case of one set of logic for one situation and one set of logic for another.

For a person who shouts democracy all the time,its surprising that you don't seem to support transparency in the voting process.

Simply thinking "I CBA waiting" - not a good enough excuse in life.

What makes you think I'm against a vote? If the resolution of this is that the Spanish government agrees to give the people another fair, free and open referendum, that's the best possible scenario for a peaceful outcome. But in the absence of that, what we have is the will of the people as best they can state it in the face of oppression.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116







So 65 out of the 135 members of their parliament either voted against or abstained in protest at the vote,and 38.7% of the populace voted for independence but it wasn't monitored by international observers.

Wouldn't it be easier for people to try and do what Scotland do and just be patient about this and eventually get a proper vote and see what happens??

I just feel this is not going to end well,and Spain should really know better after the civil war in the 1930s when they ended up killing each other.

I've heard from people who call themselves Catalonian that the education system teaches kids from a young age they are Catalonian, not Spanish.

I head that too and the funny thing is they are one of the richest parts of the country and apparently there was some noise they consider the rest of a country is dragging them down. In some aspects it would be like London,deciding to unilaterally declare independence from the UK.

However if they truely want that its one thing, but what I am shocked that people on this very forum actually think that voting shouldn't be done transparently with proper safeguards in place.

In the UK,lots and lots of safeguards are put in place to make sure,its all done transparently and no potential vote rigging can happen. Its why elections,referendums,etc take so much time and money to organise.

If people think that is a waste of time,how soon will they think these very same safeguards are surplus to requirements here??

How can we ever even try and criticise other countries ,etc for not having transparent elections,etc.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Moaning that a government is not implementing a vote "quick enough" is not a good enough excuse really.

Who do you believe thinks that?

What makes you think I'm against a vote? If the resolution of this is that the Spanish government agrees to give the people another fair, free and open referendum, that's the best possible scenario for a peaceful outcome. But in the absence of that, what we have is the will of the people as best they can state it in the face of oppression.

Will of what people - half their parliament ABSTAINED FFS. 65 out of 135 of their own parliament didn't vote or voted against. Read the news,the opposition parties don't want anything to do with the other half so didn't vote. The parliament is composed of politicians voted in by the people of the region. Catalonia is not even unified as a parliament - a huge number of their own politicians don't apparently want independence which means the people who voted for those parties probably don't want it either.

Only 43% of people voted,and it still came to 39% in total who voted in an election where nobody can tell whether there was any vote rigging happening at all. There were reports of independence supporters putting up posters of politicians,etc who wanted to stay in Spain to show who they were,etc and people voting twice at voting stations. This is the point,unless a vote can be organised which can be overseen,the referendum is still not verifiable as much as the internet bandwagon machine wants it to be. How many times has this happened,when the west has got overexcited and then supported a movement - want to talk about Libya ??

How well did that go,when we supported rebels who apparently didn't have the support of the whole country and when one of the major factions now is made up of Gaddafi loyalists.This is what happens when people start getting drawn in by YT,etc and then forget there is probably more than one side to any such situation.

An excuse of "its not happening quick enough" is not a good enough excuse. If the Catalonians truly want a independence then instead of jumping around in a jingoistic attitude maybe they should calm down,and be patient waiting for such a vote.

Scotland waited a very long time to get its vote and unlike Catalonia it was always a country and not a rich region of a country.

I am going to laugh so much if Scotland does not get a second referendum anytime soon,and Sturgeon,et al then do an unofficial independence vote which nobody can verify and then breakaway. I assume so many here will be totally OK with that.

[TeePee]

However if they truely want that its one thing, but what I am shocked that people on this very forum actually think that voting shouldn't be done transparently with proper safeguards in place.

Who do you believe thinks that?

[SeriousSam]

This is worth reading in regards to the Catalan situation; ‘Compromise’ — a simple word without a Spanish translation

https://elpais.com/elpais/2016/01/18...24_537822.html

[kompukare]

This is worth reading in regards to the Catalan situation; ‘Compromise’ — a simple word without a Spanish translation

Yes, but doesn't the fuss made over the UK's last coalition (nobody got what their manifesto said, the biggest party must be in any coalition etc.), and indeed the whole FPTP voting system imply that compromise isn't really a word with a British* translation too?
*Not the English language as Ireland has coalitions as a norm (with often the biggest party FF being excluded if nobody can get along with them), does social partnership and uses STV.
Those kind of the winner takes it all attitude are the opposite of compromise and maybe explain the British attitude to coalitions and negotiations. (Since the EU largely works by compromise and consensuses, this might also partially explain Brexit.)

As for Catalan, well firstly Rajoy has a long history of centralist tendencies so rather than offering to negotiate about enhancing autonomy for regions, he's more keen to take it away. For instance:

The new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, approved after a referendum in 2006, was contested by important sectors of the Spanish society, especially by the conservative Popular Party, which sent the law to the Constitutional Court of Spain. In 2010, the Court declared non valid some of the articles that established an autonomous Catalan system of Justice, better aspects of the financing, a new territorial division, the status of Catalan language or the symbolical declaration of Catalonia as a nation.[22] This decision was severely contested by large sectors of Catalan society, which increased the demands of independence.[23]

(From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalo...2.80.932014.29)
(Also, the PP's reaction to the 2004 Madrid bombings was also pretty revealing with them immediately trying to blame ETA after participating in Iraq despite Spain having had some of the largest anti-Iraq-war protests.)
Against that the Catalan government is not really that much better. Basically, both are right leaning nationalists making conflict far more likely.

I would disagree with Cat's blanket opposition to UDI's though: during the decolonisation UDIs were often the only means available. Obviously with the Spanish central government declaring the vote illegal, no proper democratic process was followed but the central government is as much to blame for that as the Catalan one.

The Spanish central government's continued insistence that a regional cannot ceded and that any referendum needs to be national both cite the constitution and then the Spanish nationalist immediately point out that Catalan approved the constitution by c. 80% or so. But aside from that constitutions should change with the times, the 80% approval thing is a strange arguments as the 1978 vote is now nearly 40 years ago and surely at the time lots of voters would have voted for it with the fear that if it wasn't approved they'd go back to the Franco era.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I would disagree with Cat's blanket opposition to UDI's though: during the decolonisation UDIs were often the only means available. Obviously with the Spanish central government declaring the vote illegal, no proper democratic process was followed but the central government is as much to blame for that as the Catalan one.

The Spanish central government's continued insistence that a regional cannot ceded and that any referendum needs to be national both cite the constitution and then the Spanish nationalist immediately point out that Catalan approved the constitution by c. 80% or so. But aside from that constitutions should change with the times, the 80% approval thing is a strange arguments as the 1978 vote is now nearly 40 years ago and surely at the time lots of voters would have voted for it with the fear that if it wasn't approved they'd go back to the Franco era.

How can you verify anything from such a vote?? Why is everyone just ignoring what the opposition candidates are saying like the following:

Carlos Carrizosa, a Catalan lawmaker with Ciudadanos, said:rubbish“By putting this monstrosity of a secession bill into practice you destroy everything. Today is a sad, dramatic day for Catalonia . . . a coup against our democracy.”

People are just utterly ignoring every single non-independence Catalan voice out there. Why are people peddling the line that all Catalan voices are pro-independence??

Look at some of the words from people who wanted to vote against independence who abstained. Do you honestly think when there are mobs of people running around shouting for independence,that others will feel safe to vote??
There was even people saying they were voting twice,etc.People can deflect all they want since independence movements always seems a "cool" cause,but only 70 out of 135 members of the Parliament voted for independence,and most of the opposition abstained and apparently it needed at least 90 votes for any motion to pass. Read some of the Spanish papers - posters of pro-unity politicians,etc were being plastered up on walls,etc.

Have people in this country not learnt anything from the last 20 years?? Look at how many times we have gone and done stuff based on getting caught up in the moment,etc(like Libya) and then are shocked to discover a whole "other" side who didn't like what we did.

The fact is just moaning "its taking too long" is not an excuse anyway. If anything they have probably made it harder for a said vote to happen now.

This is exactly why the opposition has just decided to boycott all of this.

Edit!!

This is what annoys me with all of this. It seems in this social media age,people seem to not realise that there is more than one side to any war,vote,etc. People are just repeating the pro-independence line about everything hook,line and sinker,and there is even no apparent attempt to verify anything let alone try and bother to look at what the "other side" in the region is also saying.

I mean come on,when 65 out of 135 people in your own parliament mostly abstain from a vote,and makes statements like the above,that indicates a very deep split happening.

This is why people trying to "accept" this vote as being totally fine miss the point of why it "isn't fine". There is no indication that was even inclusive of anything other than a "yes" vote which means the pro-unity people will feel even more threatened.

This is the sort of stuff which can lead to bigger issues longterm. We should know about such issues festering!!

So this is why the only vote which is valid is one which can be verified.

Plus,if people feel the Spanish law system is flawed then they should be starting movements to change such a system to a better one. Look at what happened in Italy when someone tried to change stuff and lost.

The fact that it has not changed indicates deep too many people are happy with the status quo.

[Saracen]

....

Sorry,imagine if the Scots nationalists did the same and unilaterally said we are off??

Look at the actual referendum - more people voted to stay and loads couldn't be arsed voting.

So that tells me despite all the noise and demonstrations for independence by nationalists,in reality the majority didn't agree.

This is why I 100% disagree this is a "proper" vote,since it needs to be done transparently.

It also leads the problem that if people think unilateral declarations of independence without any sort of international involvement to verify things is considered "OK" it only strengthens the hand of Russia.

If anything the EU is in a tough spot - do they support this and by extension mean Crimea is lost for ever to Russia,and also supporting by extension the breakaway regions of Ukraine,or do they just let Spain handle it internally??

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The difference is that the Westminster gov't gave the ScotNats what they asked for, a properly constituted referendum, which the ScotNats promtly lost.

If you are correct in that the majority of the Catalonian people wanted to stay in Spain, then Madrid cocked up spectacularly by trying, rather unsuccessfully, to block the referendum.

Or are you suggesting that the analog is that the SNP lost the referendum then declared independence anyway? If so, the UK government woukd be entitled to stomp on such a declaration as a properly constituted referendum had voted to stay.

Which, BTW, is why the SNP have gone quiet on another referendum .... they are fully aware than if they get it and lose it again, then just like the secessionist Quebecoise, the "neverendum" will be over for a good long time. The SNP aren't going to push for another referendum, let alone announce UDI, until they feel confident political tea-leaf readers auger in their favour.

Anyway, what I was it should be the will of the people, either way to decide. I didn't say what I thought that will was, seccede or remain.

[badass]

This whole thing got me thinking:

Where do you draw the line of the right to self determination? Region? City? Borough? House? Can I have a referendum and make my house an independent house-state?

I fully support the right to self determination of the Catalan people (and indeed the Scots, although I think independence would be bad for both them and us)

I had a think and realise that I haven't a clue where the line should be drawn. I quite like the idea of a house-state https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyk0HcNXTQQ

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The difference is that the Westminster gov't gave the ScotNats what they asked for, a properly constituted referendum, which the ScotNats promtly lost.

If you are correct in that the majority of the Catalonian people wanted to stay in Spain, then Madrid cocked up spectacularly by trying, rather unsuccessfully, to block the referendum.

Or are you suggesting that the analog is that the SNP lost the referendum then declared independence anyway? If so, the UK government woukd be entitled to stomp on such a declaration as a properly constituted referendum had voted to stay.

Which, BTW, is why the SNP have gone quiet on another referendum .... they are fully aware than if they get it and lose it again, then just like the secessionist Quebecoise, the "neverendum" will be over for a good long time. The SNP aren't going to push for another referendum, let alone announce UDI, until they feel confident political tea-leaf readers auger in their favour.

Anyway, what I was it should be the will of the people, either way to decide. I didn't say what I thought that will was, seccede or remain.

So imagine what would have happened if Scotland nationalists decided 10 years ago they would hold such a ballot after decades of trying,since Westminster was dragging its feet and decided to unilaterally seccede with no permission from Westminster?? Or the London major says London wants to succede,does a ballot which is not verified by anybody apart from his mates,and then unilaterally leaves the UK.

Then they informed the local police force(including those with weapons) to ignore the national courts or any national laws at the same time,so you had armed people now under a new secessionist government??

Remember,how long Scottish nationalists have been trying to get a vote - probably a century?? They were patient.

I haven't said whether those who want to stay are a majority or minority,but in the end look at how many of the nationalists made a big song and dance about leaving in Scotland,to the extent it looked a done deal. I actually thought almost all Scots wanted it with the amount of noise the nationalists were making. Except in reality what happened?

Just because people make a big noise on social media and the news it means nothing.

What I find very unusual(not about you necessarily) is people in general are quick to accept the legality of this "referendum" as gospel truth when 65 of the 135 members of the Catalan parliament voted against or abstained from the vote with words like this:

Carlos Carrizosa, a Catalan lawmaker with Ciudadanos, said:rubbish“By putting this monstrosity of a secession bill into practice you destroy everything. Today is a sad, dramatic day for Catalonia . . . a coup against our democracy.”

Apparently it needed a 90 vote majority(not sure on this one,but I read it in one article).

When just under 39% of the population voted,and when none of the votes were verified either. People said they voted twice.

The referendum means diddly squat if its not done in a way that can be verified at all. This is what we do in this country with votes otherwise it might as well be a banana republic with an El Presidente for life gaining 101% of all the votes.

The excuse of "its taking too long" is not a viable one. If that is the case,if I get impatient,I can just make up new rules whenever I like??

If the Spanish law system is the problem here,then like I said earlier,if people feel enough about it they should start a grassroots campaign to change it,especially via formation of political parties.

But the issue is that I don't seem to see much change in Spain regarding that so many apparently don't seem to care??

So many on social media are jumping on the cool "freedom fighters" bandwagon against the "evil" government yet apparently,for all the shouts of "democracy" not a single person has stopped to think whether half the claims of the
independence crowd are verifiable,and they do the even bigger cardinal sin of not playing the devils advocate and asking what about the "other" people in Catalonia might feel either.

You know the nearly 50% of their own parliament,and the millions and millions of people,ie,61% who didn't vote.

They are instantly assuming ALL of them would have voted to leave,when if they even bothered to do some research,there are people even in Catalonia who are questioning the vote itself, and even in news articles you have people who didn't want to leave saying the pro-independence people were trying to drown them out,and when people feel such a vote is rigged,why do you think they would bother to vote??

Even their leader was being investigated just before the vote:

https://www.efe.com/efe/english/worl...000262-3383331

Spanish police on Tuesday raided a water company that supplies one of the largest cities in the affluent Catalonia region due to suspected embezzlement during the period when the current regional president, who is spearheading a controversial bid for independence, was mayor.

Sources close to the investigation told EFE that around 15 raids were likely to be carried out throughout the day, though no arrests were expected, as police investigated alleged embezzlement and fraud at AGISSA, which supplies the city of Girona with water.

As part of "Operation Aquarium," authorities were investigating, among other irregularities, the latest renewal of the water supply contract, dated 2013, when Carles Puigdemont was the mayor of Girona, the sources told EFE.

Puigdemont, who led the city from 2011 to 2016 and is now president of the regional government, is one of the key figures in Catalonia's secessionist movement which on Oct. 1 is to culminate in an independence referendum that the Spanish central government and highest judiciary authorities have deemed unconstitutional.

Too many times in the past we have tended to jump on bandwagons supporting one group over another(Libya and so many other messes we get ourselves into),and then jump headlong into supporting positions without realising there maybe 2,3 or even 4 sides in that situation.

Honestly someone has to play the devils advocate here even if its an unpopular position.

Since,I am just re-repeating what I am saying now,people know my position well enough and I will keep it at that.

[peterb]

So should Spain now use force to impose its constitutional 'right' to rule Catalonia - in much the same way the Soviet Government used force in Hungary in 1956 and in Czechoslovakia in 1967?

There are slight differences in that both those regions had been independent countries in relatively recent history - Catalonia is a region, although it was independent until the 15th century.

Madrid's problem (well, one of them) is that if Catalonia gains independence, that will fuel Basque separatists, and possibly their colonies in North Africa. On the other hand using armed force to crush the rebellion would (probably) be seen as unacceptable by most nations and even the EU would have to do something - making Brexit look like a walk in the park. I wonder if Catalonia would seek to join the EU?

I noted today that the leader of the Welsh Nationalists wants to recognise Catalonia as an independent state.

[Saracen]

Also,90% of 43% of people who voted,ie,just under 39% .....

Can you seriously not see the fallacy in that?

Two things.

First, in the absence of mandatory voting, convention is that a win is by a win of the majority that voted. There is no way to predict how those tgat didn't vote would have voted if they had, because they didn't. We cannot assume that non-voters are against, any more than we can assume they are for.

Which is why most forms of democracy in existence today reqard people as having to have the opportunity to vote, and whether they exercise it ir not is their business. But, as was pointed out earlier, those that don't bother to exercise their vote have no right to bitch if they don't like the result.

Second, given that the Madrid government did everything they conceivably could to prevent the vote, from closing polling stations to thuggush police violence against those seeking to vote, it's just ever so slightly rich to then reject the result because of a low turnout.

David Cameron was roundly criticised for risking the breakup of the Union by agreeing to a referendum, but it would have played into the SNP grievance to have rejected it. Had he done that, we likely would have seen the SNP pass referendum legislation in Holyrood, which would, under UK law have been unconstitutional as that is a power reserved to the Westminstrt UK government. Moreover, had Westminster done that, the sense of London curtailing Scot's right to choose may well have bern enough to generate sufficient anti-London feeling to have swung the result into a yes for independence. Then, Westminster would be facing the lose-lose scenario that Madrid now faces.

So, DC took a chance, rolled the dice and, fairly narrowly, won. Madrid should have recognised the long-standing grievance and done the same. If it had, THEN it ciukd have deployed the same battery of arguments against independence that the Scottish "Remain" campaign did, like

- stronger together,
- currency,
- independence means EU exit for Catalonia
- Rest-of Spain would very likely block future EU accession attempts,
- economic disaster, woe, doom, gloom, locust-storms and plague,
- etc.

As it is, we have a right dog's dinner of a collossal mess and the more measures Madrid takes to keep Catalonia in, the nastier and more resentful those wanting independence are likely to get .... especially if the police resort to violence. Again.

That way, if they aren't careful, lies bombing campaigns and civil war.


As for the EU, while this affects the EU, to my mind it's not an EU problem. It's an internal problem for Spain, and the best thing everybody else can do to help, including the EU, is probably butt-out, zip it, and hope Madrid and Catalonia can sort it out between them, without violence.

[Saracen]

I haven't said whether those who want to stay are a majority or minority,but in the end look at how many of the nationalists made a big song and dance about leaving in Scotland,to the extent it looked a done deal. I actually thought almost all Scots wanted it with the amount of noise the nationalists were making. Except in reality what happened?

Point taken, but the concensus suggesting a ScotNat victory is open to interpretation, much of the speculation being about people keeping the peace by saying they'll vote leave while intending not to.

We could also make the case that, once agreed that a referendum was happening, a series of questions about a post-exit Scotland were raised, like EU-status after exit, and what currency to use, etc, that convinced a sufficient proportion that liked the idea of independence didn't much like the look of the reality. The ScotNats didn't have credible answers to some of these, not least the EU membership one once the Spanish gov't had voiced their objections, precisly because of the precedent it might set for Catalonia.

That might be described as a prescient precedent.

And with that gob-full, at this time of night, I'm off to bed. G'night.

[DanceswithUnix]

You know the nearly 50% of their own parliament,and the millions and millions of people,ie,61% who didn't vote.

I'm amazed so many people did vote given the threats and violence.

The bit I find hard to square up in my head: From the Radio 4 coverage it seems that to get an official vote the Spanish constitution needs to change (ok so far) and then everyone in Spain would have to vote on the issue, not just Catalonia. Clearly that is a vote they would lose, but is that true democracy or just oppression of a minority? If that is Madrid's attitude then it is certainly a mess and can't end well.

So now the Catalan government is dismissed, their leader is up for arrest for rebellion which carries a 30 year prison sentence, heads of police dismissed. Way to escalate.

My family wanted to go to Spain for next year's holiday, I can see that being quite cheap at least.