Catalan Parliament Declares independance from Spain

[Zak33]

oh how I hope this doesn't sink into violence.

watching this like a hawk

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...onia-president

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

The move was backed 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by opposition MPs.

In all, the motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favour, 10 against and two abstentions in the 135-seat chamber.

The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. But Spain's Constitutional Court had ruled the vote illegal.

So 65 out of the 135 members of their parliament either voted against or abstained in protest at the vote,and 38.7% of the populace voted for independence but it wasn't monitored by international observers.

Wouldn't it be easier for people to try and do what Scotland do and just be patient about this and eventually get a proper vote and see what happens??

I just feel this is not going to end well,and Spain should really know better after the civil war in the 1930s when they ended up killing each other.

[TeePee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116







So 65 out of the 135 members of their parliament either voted against or abstained in protest at the vote,and 38.7% of the populace voted for independence but it wasn't monitored by international observers.

Wouldn't it be easier for people to try and do what Scotland do and just be patient about this and eventually get a proper vote and see what happens??

I just feel this is not going to end well,and Spain should really know better after the civil war in the 1930s when they ended up killing each other.

'A proper vote' is what this was. The Spanish Government wouldn't allow any other kind of vote. This isn't like Scotland. The United Kingdom should be first in line to recognise Catalonia as an independent country, representing our values of democracy and self-determination. Of course, these values are thrown aside far too quickly by the EU.

The path here is that without support from the UN, there will be martial law, followed by an insurgency, Basque independence, and the Balkanization of Spain (which is probably the inevitable result). If the EU still stood for anything, they should be acting to support a peaceful transition.

[Zak33]

lots of Brit live in Catalonia.

lots

[Saracen]

I agree with Cat about being patient, but inexpert as I am in matters Catalonian, I thought they had been pretty patient. i.e. several decades and the Madrid government steadfastly refused to discuss it or consider it.

Fundamentally, we seem to have an issue of democratic principle, which is why though I'm opposed to Scotland leaving the UK, it (IMHO) must be a decision for the people of Scotland, as it is for the people of NI to decide between the UK and Rep of Ireland, for the Falklanders to decide between Argentina and the UK, and Gibraltarians to pick UK or Spain.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

'A proper vote' is what this was. The Spanish Government wouldn't allow any other kind of vote. This isn't like Scotland. The United Kingdom should be first in line to recognise Catalonia as an independent country, representing our values of democracy and self-determination. Of course, these values are thrown aside far too quickly by the EU.

The path here is that without support from the UN, there will be martial law, followed by an insurgency, Basque independence, and the Balkanization of Spain (which is probably the inevitable result). If the EU still stood for anything, they should be acting to support a peaceful transition.

Emm,how can it be proper when it had no international observers and when almost half the parliament decided to abstain? Plus no your right,Scotland was a separate country as part of a union,not a region which is part of a country so it actually can leave when it wants. Yet despite being a country for centuries waited decades patiently to get its vote. So an epic own goal.

The UK government didn't allow the Scottish government a vote for a long time,yet I don't think the Scots decided to pull the same trick.

Also what has this got to do with the EU - if they interfere you whine,and if they did don't interfere you would whine too. Why are you so obsessed about the EU,when you are stuck in the US??

Yet the same country you live in is made up of multiple states unified in a similar way,with different local and national laws.

I love it when Americans go and try to advice Europe on things when in their own country if anyone stands up against the government without due course,its either lead to armed police or the national guard being called in.

I wonder what would happen if Florida or California decided to accede without getting Washington's approval for such a vote.

Yet,in the US people were moaning about the "independence" of Crimea being null and void since there were no observers.

Yet,move it elsewhere,who cares about international observers.

My attitude the Russians are going to be the ones who benefit from all this,and this is probably why the EU,etc are worried.

I agree with Cat about being patient, but inexpert as I am in matters Catalonian, I thought tgey had been pretty patient. i.e. several decades and the Madrid government steadfastly refused to discuss it or consider it.

Fundamentally, we seem to have an issue of democratic principle, which is why though I'm opposed to Scotland leaving the UK, it (IMHO) must be a decision for the people of Scotland, as it is for the people of NI to decide between the UK and Rep of Ireland, for the Falklanders to decide between Argentina and the UK, and Gibraltarians to pick UK or Spain.

Sorry,imagine if the Scots nationalists did the same and unilaterally said we are off??

Look at the actual referendum - more people voted to stay and loads couldn't be arsed voting.

So that tells me despite all the noise and demonstrations for independence by nationalists,in reality the majority didn't agree.

This is why I 100% disagree this is a "proper" vote,since it needs to be done transparently.

It also leads the problem that if people think unilateral declarations of independence without any sort of international involvement to verify things is considered "OK" it only strengthens the hand of Russia.

If anything the EU is in a tough spot - do they support this and by extension mean Crimea is lost for ever to Russia,and also supporting by extension the breakaway regions of Ukraine,or do they just let Spain handle it internally??

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[TeePee]

Emm,how can it be proper when it had no international observers and when almost half the parliament decided to abstain? Plus no your right,Scotland was a separate country as part of a union,not a region which is part of a country so it actually can leave when it wants. Yet despite being a country for centuries waited decades patiently to get its vote. So an epic own goal.

The UK government didn't allow the Scottish government a vote for a long time,yet I don't think the Scots decided to pull the same trick.

Also what has this got to do with the EU - if they interfere you whine,and if they did don't interfere you would whine too. Why are you so obsessed about the EU,when you are stuck in the US??

Yet the same country you live in is made up of multiple states unified in a similar way,with different local and national laws.

I love it when Americans go and try to advice Europe on things when in their own country if anyone stands up against the government without due course,its either lead to armed police or the national guard being called in.

I wonder what would happen if Florida or California decided to accede without getting Washington's approval for such a vote.

Yet,in the US people were moaning about the "independence" of Crimea being null and void since there were no observers.

Yet,move it elsewhere,who cares about international observers.

My attitude the Russians are going to be the ones who benefit from all this,and this is probably why the EU,etc are worried.



Sorry,imagine if the Scots nationalists did the same and unilaterally said we are off??

Look at the actual referendum - more people voted to stay and loads couldn't be arsed voting.

So that tells me despite all the noise and demonstrations for independence by nationalists,in reality the majority didn't agree.

This is why I 100% disagree this is a "proper" vote,since it needs to be done transparently.

I support democracy and self-determination. If California, Texas or Alaska wish to succeed, it should be their right to do so. The problem is that support for State's rights quickly devolves in to a discussion of Slavery and the US War of Northern Aggression. I'm pro-freedom in every possible respect.

While the majority of Scottish people certainly voted to remain, 90% of Catalan voters wanted out. If you don't like the poor attendance, then surely you would condemn the Spanish government for their violent suppression of voting centers.

I bring up the EU because they are supposed to exist to support a united and stable Europe, and are failing spectacularly. No surprise, they care only about money, and not the values and principles that are actually important. Even the most hardened remains must be feeling better about the future of an independent Britain.

[Zak33]

if I were there, I'd have voted.

If I were there and didn't vote, I'd have to take the rough with the smooth, right?

Use it or lose it I think

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I support democracy and self-determination. If California, Texas or Alaska wish to succeed, it should be their right to do so. The problem is that support for State's rights quickly devolves in to a discussion of Slavery and the US War of Northern Aggression. I'm pro-freedom in every possible respect.

While the majority of Scottish people certainly voted to remain, 90% of Catalan voters wanted out. If you don't like the poor attendance, then surely you would condemn the Spanish government for their violent suppression of voting centers.

I bring up the EU because they are supposed to exist to support a united and stable Europe, and are failing spectacularly. No surprise, they care only about money, and not the values and principles that are actually important. Even the most hardened remains must be feeling better about the future of an independent Britain.

Hardened?? You are obsessed with the EU and its funny as a person who does not even live here you actually care. If you do care that much,instead of running off to the US,come back here and do something about it??

You are absolutely naive about the whole situation.

The EU can't support it,since they have a "slight" issue in the Ukraine with Crimean independence and two breakaway regions. Any recognition of a non international verified independence vote,by extension also means Russia can pretty much say the same thing and point to Spain.

Also you need to be more worried about the state of the US instead of deflecting all that. In the end you can make up as much noise as you want dude,if any state made a declaration without due course and consultation with Washington it would lead to a confrontation.

Your own country has so much violence and problems - yet its funny when Americans talk about that and your own police being incredibly heavy handed.

Solve your own issues out before calling out Europe,OK??

In fact its hilarious when the west enthusiastically embraces some unilateral declarations of independence,then even supplies weapons to said separatists, and then considers others "illegal" and then supplies weapons so they can be quashed. Typical short memories and double standards. Freedom for some,death for others.

In fact I am laughing at the people like you,and how it flip-flops depending on what part of the world.

Also,90% of 43% of people who voted,ie,just under 39% and half the parliament didn't even vote for the declaration.

In the end every single independence movement which succeeded without a war did it with due course and patience - look at the separation of Czechoslovakia.

I mean some of you are in a bubble - look at the troubles in NI??

When has our government allowed a reunification vote??

Edit!!

I am only going to take the popcorn out and watch this with amusement.

Then watch with amusement whilst some of you a few years later consider suppression of independence movements OK,as they are considered terrorists.

[TeePee]

if I were there, I'd have voted.

If I were there and didn't vote, I'd have to take the rough with the smooth, right?

Use it or lose it I think

This may have been your experience if you tried. 'This is what Democracy looks like.'.

[TeePee]

Hardened?? You are obssesed with the EU and its funny as a person who does not even live here you actually care. You need to be more worried about the state of the US instead of deflecting all that. In the end you can make up as much noise as you want dude,if any state made a declaration without due course and consultation with Washington it would lead to a confrontation.

In fact its hilarious when the west enthusiastically embraces some unilateral declarations of independence,then supplies weapons to said separatists, and then considers others "illegal" and then supplies weapons so they can be quashed. Typical short memories and double standards. Freedom for some,death for others.


Also,90% of 43% of people who voted,ie,just under 39% and half the parliament didn't even vote for the declaration.

In the end every single independence movement which succeeded without a war did it with due course and patience - look at the separation of Czechoslovakia.

I'm a person who left because of the negative direction the UK was taking 10-15 years ago. I'm delighted to see how much things are improving for my former country. I'm not obsessed with the EU, but I am obsessed with freedom. I am in complete agreement with you over short memories and double standards. Pro-democracy should be an absolute policy, regardless of how much we like the results, and how much oil they possess.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Meh,the UK literally invaded Ireland to protect a minority and divided the country for decades and then sent troops in. Yet,when have we seen an reunification vote handed to NI?? Its just like the Scottish independence vote - took goodness know how long for that to happen.

Even in this country,the government has done everything it could to protect the union.

Then you have the issues in Crimea and Ukraine,and apparently those separatists,are the wrong type so we need to bomb them.

Then you have Spain and people saying they should randomly have declarations when under 40% of the population and 50% of the parliament vote for it,since apparently the others don't shout enough so should shut up.

Extend that to the rest of the world where the West flip-flops between supporting independence movements and separatists to supplying weapons for them to be bombed.

Just a joke really.

My attitude is if you support independence movements where nothing can be verified independently by observers,then by extension you lose the right to complain about about any situation where countries like Russia,etc might instigate the same.

[TeePee]

Meh,the UK literally invaded NI to protect a minority and divided the country for decades and then sent troops in. Yet,when have we seen an reunification vote handed to NI?? Its just like the Scottish independence vote - took goodness know how long for that to happen.

Even in this country,the government has done everything it could to protect the union.

Then you have the issues in Crimea and Ukraine,and apparently those separatists,are the wrong type so we need to bomb them.

Then you have Spain and people saying they should randomly have declarations when under 40% of the population and 50% of the parliament vote for it,since apparently the others don't shout enough so should shut up.

Extend that to the rest of the world where the West flip-flops between supporting independence movements and separatists to supplying weapons for them to be bombed.

Just a joke really.

1973.

How much of the other 57% of the Catalan population were prevented from voting? Brexit had a 70% turnout. If the Catalan vote had a similar turnout, and every single extra vote was for remain, the result would be unchanged.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

1973.

Yet less than 1% of catholic votes actually voted on that or did you ignore the fact the British government sent troops in for the next few decades,and 1000s died?? Obviously the vote was not as widely accepted as you think it was.

So,I wonder why after the troubles they haven't tried to re-engage with the catholic community and see if another vote was required.

How much of the other 57% of the Catalan population were prevented from voting? Brexit had a 70% turnout. If the Catalan vote had a similar turnout, and every single extra vote was for remain, the result would be unchanged.

Half their parliament voted against or abstained,or do you want to just ignore that fact?? How do you know if the other lot who wanted to vote in the elections to stay as part of Spain didn't vote since all the ballots were manned by pro-separatist people and they were scared their votes would not be anonymous,or they feared they would be judged for voting the "wrong way".

Plus,last time I checked,Brexit was done in a transparent way which was open to observation by observers,so the results could be verified.

The fact of the matter is you seem massively against a vote manned by independent observers and that is very worrying and you seem almost terrified at people suggesting that should be the way forward.

Unfortunately for you,in most countries in this planet,any election is considered valid when its open to proper external verification by independent or international bodies.

People can shout and scream as much as they want,but in the end the Catalan government could have bided its time and done the correct thing and waited for a government which would be more open to having one.

Instead they are the ones who have caused this whole crisis by whipping up people and then are shocked when a central government gets pissed off.

This is basically what happens in every country - unilateral declarations of independence lead to problems and only people on the internet think it does not lead to that.

If anything,if it were elsewhere in the world,many countries would have probably already sent in the army already. Don't for one thing think Europe is as bad as many places in the world.

[TeePee]

1973.

Yet less than 1% of catholic votes actually voted on that or did you ignore the fact the British government sent troops in for the next few decades,and 1000s died?? Obviously the vote was not as widely accepted as you think it was.

So,I wonder why after the troubles they haven't tried to re-engage with the catholic community and see if another vote was required.



Half their parliament voted against or abstained,or do you want to just ignore that fact?? How do you know if the other lot who wanted to vote in the elections to stay as part of Spain didn't vote since all the ballots were manned by pro-separatist people and they were scared their votes would not be anonymous,or they feared they would be judged for voting the "wrong way".

Plus,last time I checked,Brexit was done in a transparent way which was open to observation by observers,so the results could be verified.

The fact of the matter is you seem massively against a vote manned by independent observers and that is very worrying.

Which vote am I against, again?

[TeePee]

1973.

Yet less than 1% of catholic votes actually voted on that or did you ignore the fact the British government sent troops in for the next few decades,and 1000s died?? Obviously the vote was not as widely accepted as you think it was.

So,I wonder why after the troubles they haven't tried to re-engage with the catholic community and see if another vote was required.



Half their parliament voted against or abstained,or do you want to just ignore that fact?? How do you know if the other lot who wanted to vote in the elections to stay as part of Spain didn't vote since all the ballots were manned by pro-separatist people and they were scared their votes would not be anonymous,or they feared they would be judged for voting the "wrong way".

Plus,last time I checked,Brexit was done in a transparent way which was open to observation by observers,so the results could be verified.

The fact of the matter is you seem massively against a vote manned by independent observers and that is very worrying.

I support the right of the people of Northern Ireland to determine their own future. While opinion polls show <20% support for unifying with Ireland, I do think they should be given an opportunity for a referendum if they want one. The path towards that is to have support for it within the Northern Ireland Assembly. (Kind of like the way the people of Catalonia voted for a government that called a referendum). Right now, unsurprisingly, the people have overwhelmingly voted for an Assembly with a Unionist majority, and this is how democracy should functions.