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Thread: Todays society - snowflakes

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    Exclamation Todays society - snowflakes

    In todays society, is it beginning to get out of hand?

    Seems to me every where I look, people are getting offended left, right and centre?

    Discuss?

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    It's just divisive group identity politics.
    Once people realised they can cash cow it or bandwagon their way to 15 minutes, it took off.

    What's changed is that authorities are actually listening to such people, now.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    I find the term snowflake to be offensive and discriminative ...
    just call a spade a spade [can I say that still] ?

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Macman View Post
    In todays society, is it beginning to get out of hand?

    Seems to me every where I look, people are getting offended left, right and centre?

    Discuss?
    You seem to think that some people's feelings don't matter, and I am offended on their behalf.


    Yes, I'm kidding...

    If it shuts down discussion then indignation can be bad, but when I look back at the casual racism, sexism and xenophobia that was commonplace a few decades ago I have to say this is better. Talking to my kids they seem to genuinely have an open and inclusive outlook regarding others and a pretty good & balanced moral compass so I hope they are typical of the next generation beyond the millennials.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    I think there is a big issue with most of the people using the term snowflake are generally people that are more entitled and have had better opportunities in life and cannot see why others are pushing for social change.

    As a 26 year old I feel that there are many reasons why life is much harder on my generation including house prices, low wages and many older peoples' response is to say 'it was just as hard in my day' when that is a really hard comparison to make and in a lot of cases, no it wasn't.

    I feel i may have gone slightly off topic of my point, generally the biggest users of the term snowflake are people who are white and male, so thus haven't ever experienced discrimination and could easily be convinced there are no more social issues to tackle. I am a white male and I have only realized and learnt about the issues from talking to my friends of different races and genders.

    Whilst I do agree that there is a big case of people getting offended by things, quite often the overreaction is the worst part, like a school banning things without any complaints to 'not cause offense'.

    I think there is so much more we can do, there are more Managing Directors of companies in the UK called Dave, than there are women Managing Directors. There is a massive lack of representation of other races in higher management also.

    I would like to also just clarify, I know I have made a few generalizations and I do know there are many white males who do understand discrimination in varying degrees this point is more so referring to the fact that the people who think that everyone is a snowflake are usually people who don't understand the difficulties others face. I also understand my point may not be as clear as I would like it, and I would like to apologize for that in advance.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    I think its getting out of hand a little. But then I think that was always going to happen until we (as a society) reach a point where we realise its gone too far the other way and an adjustment happens that moves it to a move sensible position.

    I have a theoretical example that I use when debating some of this that I call the racism conundrum that goes something like this:

    I am white and use the term cheeky monkey when talking to people I know.

    A white friend is messing about and I call them a cheeky monkey.

    A black friend is messing about and I call them a cheeky monkey and he takes offence , therefore I am a racist.

    A black friend is messing about and I call them a cheeky monkey and their friend takes offence (although my friend doesn't), therefore I am a racist.

    A black friend is messing about and worried that I might cause offence to them or their friend I don't call him a cheeky monkey thereby altering my behaviour based on the colour of their skin, therefore I am the very definition of a racist.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    This is a tricky one to unpick.

    I do think that there is a lot more of people refusing to take responsibility for their actions and thus a rise in attempting to claim compensation (financial or otherwise,) for wrongs they perceive to have had happen to them and thus more people going out of their way to find something offensive. On the other hand there are a lot of things that seem to be being challenged more prominently such as gender, sexuality and racial discrimination. Unfortunately (and I'm not implying the OP is guilty of this,) "snowflake" seems to be a term largely used by those reacting against those changes of late.


    Similarly it doesn't take long before somebody tries to blame the rise of this on "Millennials". I'm 33 and therefore a Millennial (there is no hard definition but a lot of demographics assume a birthdate between 1980 and the mid 90s, quite a range!) but you'd struggle to define a characteristic that a majority of people that fit that bracket would share, just as it would be impossible to justify (for example,) that all Baby Boomers subscribe to the "I'm alright Jack" school of thought that they sometimes get tarred with.

    My view is that people of all ages are just as guilty of the negative side of this (the ambulance chasing or being offended on someone elses behalf stuff,) but the Millennials are more vocal about the equality stuff.

    I've had this debate on 3 forums now. This one, a football fans forum and a gamers forum. It's interesting watching how they develop given the demographics of the forum in question. The football one is almost exclusively white, Christian/agnostic men of varying ages,) the gamer one has more ethnic diversity but skews heavily toward young and male. I'm not sure where exactly Hexus fits but I'll be reading and participating with interest.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Macman View Post
    In todays society, is it beginning to get out of hand?

    Seems to me every where I look, people are getting offended left, right and centre?

    Discuss?
    No more than they always have done - 100 years ago women were more than just offended at not being able to vote. On the other hand I think we are going through a timely debate on what reasonable behaviour and respect might mean.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    I think there's two key points to remember:

    1) You don't get to decide if someone else is offended.
    2) You don't get a free pass because "you didn't mean it".

    Pretty much every use of the word snowflake I see online in connection to offence is trying to deny both of those issues. If someone says they're offended, believe them, and accept there is probably some reason you are not aware of that means they're offended. Apologise. If you're not sure why they're offended, ask politely and have a reasonable discussion. Don't try to tell them they shouldn't be offended.

    Basically, treat everyone like a real person, who has feelings, and experiences, which may be different from yours. Their life is as valid as yours is.

    Really, adult humans shouldn't need telling this stuff. It's not difficult...

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I think there's two key points to remember:

    1) You don't get to decide if someone else is offended.
    2) You don't get a free pass because "you didn't mean it".

    Pretty much every use of the word snowflake I see online in connection to offence is trying to deny both of those issues. If someone says they're offended, believe them, and accept there is probably some reason you are not aware of that means they're offended. Apologise. If you're not sure why they're offended, ask politely and have a reasonable discussion. Don't try to tell them they shouldn't be offended.

    Basically, treat everyone like a real person, who has feelings, and experiences, which may be different from yours. Their life is as valid as yours is.

    Really, adult humans shouldn't need telling this stuff. It's not difficult...
    Or...
    Follow this quote from Stephen Fry:

    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f---ing what."

    Just because someone is offended doesn't mean you have to fall over yourself to placate them. Why is it always your responsibility to deal with their issues?

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    i see reports that say people who pirate music spend more money on music than people who don't pirate music, with the conclusion being that piracy increases music spend. however my take is that people who are interested in music will spend more on music and pirate more, because they like music, and people who don't pirate music will buy less music as they don't like music that much

    so my take on this is some people will be offended, and some won't. it's more likely younger people will participate online in discussions where someone will say they are offended, than older people. so rather than younger people being offended more, and the snowflake conclusion, it's just more young people are vocal online about things they don't like, than older people, rather than a bigger percentage of younger people being upset about things than older people

    as for things being harder today for younger people. I wouldn't say that. I'd just say it's different. if I look back to when I was young and compare to both now, and compare to my parents when they were young, I think I had it better off, and I think young people today have it better off. wages are better now for a number of reasons. house prices are high though compared to when my parents were young. but then they had less overall. they didn't have the gadgets we have, no internet, 3 channels on the telly, no phone at all. food was more home made than ready made. no branded or designer clothing. today kids under 10 have phones far more powerful than pcs from 20 years ago, and can contact people literally all over the world and speak to them in video chat. you have spotify and Netflix and youtube and downloading, so get literally any music, tv show, movie, game, software pretty much instantly (with decades of material available), and for free (not necessarily legally) or next to nothing. you can hook up with girls for dates or one night stands with a phone app, without needing to chat someone up in person. there are so many more laws about health and safety and employment and wages and holiday entitlement. there's far more opportunity to make money on the side, operating out of your bedroom, such as ebay. as time goes on, homes/money will be inherited from other family members (obviously not in all cases) moreso than ever before. international travel is cheap, you have cheap clothes at primark, we aren't as label obsessed as we were in the 80s or 90s. there's far more scope for different interests/genres/tribes. and that's now. imagine what a kid born 10 years from now is gonna have. imagine the technology

    there's going to be good and bad in all cases, but it's better to dwell on the good than the bad. don't look back on the past with rose tinted glasses, as people tend to forget the power cuts and unemployment, and boredom of the past and just remember the sunny good ole days

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I think there's two key points to remember:

    1) You don't get to decide if someone else is offended.
    2) You don't get a free pass because "you didn't mean it".

    Pretty much every use of the word snowflake I see online in connection to offence is trying to deny both of those issues. If someone says they're offended, believe them, and accept there is probably some reason you are not aware of that means they're offended. Apologise. If you're not sure why they're offended, ask politely and have a reasonable discussion. Don't try to tell them they shouldn't be offended.

    Basically, treat everyone like a real person, who has feelings, and experiences, which may be different from yours. Their life is as valid as yours is.

    Really, adult humans shouldn't need telling this stuff. It's not difficult...
    I also think a big issue is people think that freedom of speech means a free pass from responsibility.

    You are welcome to say what you like, but the consequences of your actions are still yours. You might be arrested, called out for being offensive/bigoted, or just alienate people.

    A lot of the time people are offended by what people say because its not in keeping with our evolving values, and people should recognize that.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post

    Just because someone is offended doesn't mean you have to fall over yourself to placate them. Why is it always your responsibility to deal with their issues?
    Because in a civilised society, one should be sensitive to other peoples sensitivities. However that should not prevent to discussion of ideas that some people find offensive - there is a fine line between personal attack with offensive language and discussion of sensitive subjects in an appropriate manner. (And I wouldn't regard Stephen Fry as the arbiter of peoples sensitivities)

    That said, this tendency to try and revise history (such as the removal of the statue of Cecil Rhodes from one of the Oxford colleges is (imnsho) unwarranted
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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    ... Just because someone is offended doesn't mean you have to fall over yourself to placate them. Why is it always your responsibility to deal with their issues?
    I don't think I said "fall over yourself to placate them". I said don't deny their experience. It's not the same thing. Engage in conversation.

    Some people, when they claim offence, are pretty much just whining. But some will have genuine reasons for being upset. If your first reaction is "they're just whining" then you're not engaging at all. You're outright denying their lived experience. And - with apologies to Stephen Fry, for whom I have the greatest respect - that's just flat out rude. The person taking offence doesn't have any special rights, no, but they still have the right to be treated as a real person. They still matter.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    false indignation, alongside rampant two faced nature riles me

    Newspapers claiming the moral high ground after a short space of time from being sexist is a great example

    I sometimes feel obliged to be offended when I'm not.. that pisses me off and it's me that's feeling it !

    The hardest thing in 2018 will be knowing who is offended, who isn't offended and who needs asking if they're offended. Some peope are offended if you ask them if something offends them, many people sayh they're offended because they've been told to be offended. And some peopel really should be offended but aren't because they're so used to the offence in quiestion.
    And it's all v v confusing.

    But it's only confusing because... I'm using my own standpoint to base their level of offense on. Relativity rules. I'm not offended by being called some frankly ohorrific words, and I truly am not. But I perhaps should be. And I laughed as a very sexist joke this month, told by a lady who really shouldn't have found it funny but who couldn't stop laughing.

    Frankly... #metoo might have to start covering people who just don't quite know if it's ok to talk.

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    Re: Todays society - snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by RaTTuS View Post
    just call a spade a spade [can I say that still] ?
    I tried that once, until someone pointed out that I was using the phrase while speaking to a black person. Apparently that's now allowed now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaineoliver View Post
    I think there is a big issue with most of the people using the term snowflake are generally people that are more entitled and have had better opportunities in life and cannot see why others are pushing for social change.
    Nothing wrong with social change if there's a good reason... Like tackling violent sexual assault, or people freezing to death because they can't afford to have the heater on at home.

    But making up 45 new pronouns to account for however many different genders people identify with at that particular time, and then forcing everyone to use these by law is a bit extreme. It's just pandering to attention-seeking snowflakes and facilitating the same divisive group identity politics that teaches people that they have to be victims in order to get things in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaineoliver View Post
    As a 26 year old I feel that there are many reasons why life is much harder on my generation including house prices, low wages and many older peoples' response is to say 'it was just as hard in my day' when that is a really hard comparison to make and in a lot of cases, no it wasn't.
    For how long in your 26 years have you had access to a fridge, a computer, a microwave, four or more TV channels?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaineoliver View Post
    I feel i may have gone slightly off topic of my point, generally the biggest users of the term snowflake are people who are white and male
    Generally those being referred to as snowflakes are white and young.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaineoliver View Post
    I think there is so much more we can do, there are more Managing Directors of companies in the UK called Dave, than there are women Managing Directors. There is a massive lack of representation of other races in higher management also.
    Does there have to be such representation? Is it essential to the law and the functioning of society that we have exact percentage representations at all levels?

    How many women want to work 90+ hours a week and give their entire life over to being an MD or CEO, running a company like that?
    Because if they want to, they can. If they want to be PM, they can... but they have to put the work in. We're not about to give it them just because they're female...... are we?

    There aren't many non-white males (and only a very few women of any racial background and sexual orientation) cleaning fat and poo out of the sewers for £14k a year, either, but I don't hear ANY snowflakes whining that they aren't represented there...................... nope, no whining.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    If someone says they're offended, believe them, and accept there is probably some reason you are not aware of that means they're offended. Apologise. If you're not sure why they're offended, ask politely and have a reasonable discussion. Don't try to tell them they shouldn't be offended.
    They can be as offended as they like, doesn't mean I have to apologise to them for it. I don't ever expect anyone to apologise for offending me and I rarely find they do anyway.

    I have an opinion. I'm entitled to think what I like about something. I'm entitled to voice that opinion and others are just as entitled to disagree with it.
    If you're then able to get offended over it and shut me down because of it, how is that in any way fair? I find the very idea that you can destroy someone merely because you don't like what they say to be grossly offensive!!

    Seriously, though, it's not too many steps away from banning everything in case someone gets offended, which I think is because getting offended is all you're allowed to do these days. Gone are the times of decking a bloke (or even taking him outside to shoot him) for using foul language in front of a lady, because that is both sexist toward the lady and assault toward the bloke.

    Offence is always taken, never given.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Basically, treat everyone like a real person, who has feelings, and experiences, which may be different from yours. Their life is as valid as yours is.
    But no more valid and that's what the offended little snowflakes forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    However that should not prevent to discussion of ideas that some people find offensive - there is a fine line between personal attack with offensive language and discussion of sensitive subjects in an appropriate manner.
    The problem is when two parties are interacting and a third party takes offense on behalf of one of them. I seem to suffer that one a fair bit.

  25. Received thanks from:

    Biscuit (13-02-2018)

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