Do you believe in ghosts?

[iMc]

Ouija board games are all in your head. Get a group of people round a table strange things usually happen let alone if you get one of those set up and then strange things are bound to happen.

People buy into the myths around them...

[turkster]

The sooner, as a species, we leave behind these fairy tales and stories from the dark ages and move on, with all things scientific, the better.

We, as a species, have moved from the dark ages precisely because science has been able to unravel some of the mysteries of life. Without mystery science stagnates.

To quote Albert Einstein
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science."

You seem to be under the impression that all science is nice clean, proven and well understood while, in fact, much of the more important science today is scary, often partially unproven and vaguely understood. There are plenty of scientifically observable phenomena that have no theoretical explanation. Some such as sonoluminescence are rather bizarre and hardly logical. Also much of the current theory of quantum mechanics is neither logical nor common sense.

[iranu]

Turkster - very elegantly put, much more so than my own efforts.

Ouija boards - I'll post my own relevant experience later (as promised in my first post) It's not a conclusive argument but will show readers of a very strange experience encountered by a total sceptic (i.e.me)

From The New Scientist titled "13 things that do not make sense" - not about ghosts but certainly shows up our lack of understanding of "things" at the current time.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...mg18524911.600

[yamangman]

Agnosticism is again possibly the worst type of opinion held not disimilar to 'i'm not sure if ghosts exists'. Are you hedging your bets so that when you get to heaven you can give God and friendly wink and tell him that you believed in him really?

I am not convinced that the paranormal is a load of rubbish, the word convinced still instills some kind of doubt. I am absolutely 10 million percent certain that the paranormal is a load of rubbish, so certain that the word 'believe' in any such question seems totally and utterly out of place.

[Andy]

Yeah, that's right, ghosts are now proven to exist because Andy says he once seen a ghost.

All that debate, and the proof was there all along, we just had to ask Andy. Silly us.

Andy, me old mate... you know the whole God thing, sort it out once and for all if you would. Is there a God?

Not qualified to answer that one i'm afraid, im not really a beliver myself.

Andy - Not offense mate, but you know what I mean, you surely can't expect the average bloke on the street (or forum in this case) to just accept that a ghost once came and said things to you. I'm sure you believe what you are saying, but I'm also sure most do not.

The thing with this is I would have thought i was bonkers if my mother hadnt seen the same thing about 15 mins after me!

[Stewart]

Maybe she was fibbing?

[Lee H]

Ghosts - no.

So ghostbusters isn't true ....

On a serious note, I feel that there is "something" behind the ghost sightings etc, but we do not even know what it could be. For all we know it could be something to do with magnetic forces or elctromagnetic radiation or something similar having an adverse effect on our brain. After all, the brain is just like a GIANT electronic circuit and with all electric devices they can be interfered with.

Maybe one day we can have 100% proof that they do or do not exist but until then we'll always get these arguements

Until then we'll just have to keep watching most haunted on living TV so we can watch Yvette Fielding fill her pants at the sound of a magpie hitting the window or something bizarre like that. I am seriously waiting for the time a ghost appears for real so we can all see it and it starts to give Derek whatfor

[daniel_owen_uk]

The only logical stance is to dismiss completely the existence of God. The Christian religion, like all religions, is based on fairy tales and nonsense, that have no greater claim on being the true explanation for the existence of the universe than the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas.

Virgin births, people rising from the dead, walking on water, and other general nonsense may be enough for the hard of thinking and those brainwashed at an early age, but it’s hardly going to stand up against evolution and science is it?

Nonsense and faith replaced by cold hard fact and evidence.

A genuine belief in a God and the happenings of the Bible is about as illogical a belief system as you can have. It’s simply a way of opting out of reality. When you die the reality is that you decompose, but much better to kid yourself that you fly up to heaven and play an endless game of Mouse Trap with your Nan, floating on a cloud.

Yeah, very logical and not at all us kidding ourselves.

I am with you vaul I am an athiest, but I would not say "God doesn't exist", because I would be talking out of my ****, I don't have proof either way, so logic isn't involved.

Personally I don't believe that god exists but religion is about beliefs not facts.

You seem very sure on the FACT that god doesn't exist and thats as much rubbish as believing he does.

[yamangman]

So if I said the moon is made from cheese that makes it an equally valid opinion as the moon is made from rock? Give me a break. The burden of proof. I KNOW for a FACT, and I don't want to speak for the guy, but i'm sure Vaul does too.

[daniel_owen_uk]

No because we have moon rocks that prove the moon isn't a dairy product, that had to be the worst analogy ever.

You think religion would exist if we could prove without a shadow of a doubt that god doesn't exist?

[yamangman]

Have you ever been to the moon? It's a perfect analogy.

[iranu]

Yangaman - you don't have to personally go to the moon to know it's made out of rock, in a similar vein you don't have to circumnavigate the Earth to know it's a sphere. Anyone with a basic understanding of Physics will tell you it has to be a sphere.

To pick up on your post Daniel - there is irrefutable proof that the Earth is round yet there are more flat earth believers than ever. People will (and have a right to) beleive what they want.

Vaul - to deny the existence of God without proof is as bad as saying there is a God without proof. Therefore Captain the only logical alternative is agnosticism.

Fence sitting it maybe but it is not illogical.

[Stewart]

But, Mr Spock, I just think some of the nonsense in the bible is so insulting to the mind, that even though you can't prove its not true, its obviously the case. I mean, talking snakes, virgin births, women created from a mans rib... I am not going to even give nonsense like that any more consideration as a potential truth as I am the stalk theory a potential truth for where babies come from, or Santa Claus as a potential truth for christmas presents apearing on Christmas eve.

To believe in God is to believe in the happenings of the bible, and believe me, it will be a cold day in Hell (which doesn't exist of course) before I believe in that insulting bunch of half-baked stories.

The Bible claims Jesus died for our sins, I claim he died because he was nailed to a bit of wood and hoisted into the air. Of course, for my version he wouldn't need to be the son of God, any normal bloke would have died... so quick! Think of an excuse... that's it, he died for our sins!

Genius.

[Stewart]

Here's something I posted last time we had this debate, for further reading.

'A few points.

Firstly, on the whole Santa \ God thing. You say they are not the same thing and a belief in one is not the same as a belief in the other, but I would argue that they are.

They are both (in my opinion of course) the belief in a fictional being, primarily aimed at making a mundane 'thing' a much more magical and meaningful 'thing'.

A child doesn't want to think that on Christmas day, Uncle Keith dresses up in a red coat, after a few too many pints of Stella, and throws the Playstation under the fake tree.

He \ She wants to believe that Santa, a big fat geezer, at no risk from conorary heart disease, despite being morbidly obese for all of his adult life, flies from Lapland, on the back of a magic Reindeer, probably saying 'Yo Ho Ho', and puts the Playstation under the tree, because they have been a good boy, or in the case of the girl - girl.

It’s about adding a bit of sparkle to a young child’s life. Of course, they have to grow up, and realise that whole Uncle Keith \ 9 Pints of Stella reality, and whilst this isn't better than the Santa idea, it is the cold, hard fact.

Now we have God, the creator, the number one, the main man, the boss man, the gaffer, the man upstairs, the big cheese, the person in the big leather chair who gets choccy biscuits whilst everyone else has Rich Tea, the geezer of all geezers’, the architect, the Supreme Being, if you will - the daddy.

If we believe in this supernatural bloke, we don't die, and rot in a hole; oh no! Just like the magic of Santa we get to go to heaven, and play a harp, or at least, some stringed instrument based roughly on the standard harp design. (I'm not up on all these new fangled things)

Smacks a bit of the child wanting to believe in Santa really, doesn't it? A more magical outcome, that only needs you to believe in it, to be true. Of course, it's all a load of tosh (seeing as this is a thread to put forward our views, I assume I can say that without fear of upsetting anyone), but that's not the point.

The Bible, to be honest, is full of nonsense fairy tales, that make the idea of Santa look positively sensible. Talking snakes, virgin births, people rising from the dead, and other such happenings... erm, happen.

Now, bottom line; if I am asked to believe in all of that, word for word, right down to the talking snake, and the virgin birth, and some all powerful creator, I'm going to need something more than 'its the truth, because it says so in this book'.

Faith, to me, is a lot closer to ignorance that a lot of people would admit. 'I have faith' can be interpreted as 'I am totally ignorant of the situation and have not even a shred of proof or even a reason to believe that this account is true - but I believe it is anyway'.

Now (and forgive me if I'm rambling) were the whole Christian, or religious area, as a whole, one of peace, love and happy things, I'd probably have more time for it. Alas, as long as the Muslims and the Hindu's are killing each other in India, and paedophile Priests (Gods representatives on Earth, I think I am right in saying) are sexually abusing and rapeing children, as well as the other countless atrocities committed in the name of religion, I've no time for it at all.

I don't believe these stories without some sort of proof that they are fact (meaning, for instance, that I obviously acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ, but do not believe that he was the son of God, or anything more than a bloke who stood on an orange box and told people to stop doing that, and start doing that), and I don't want to associate myself with modern religion, whilst it is, quite frankly, in the utter state that it is now.

Second point – you would argue, I assume, as a Christian, than Jesus died for our sins. I however, would argue that Jesus died because he was nailed to a large piece of wood, and left to die.

I can prove beyond medical dispute, that crucifixion is fatal, and therefore, if Jesus was or was not the son of God, he would have died anyway. If you cannot prove, in any way, shape or form, that Jesus died for our sins (beyond saying ‘it says he did in this book'), why do you personally believe the version of events that can’t be proven, over the version of events that can be proven?

I can prove, beyond medical dispute, that once dead and buried, a person can not return to life, I can prove beyond medical dispute a ‘virgin birth’, in the way it is described in the bible, could not happen.

You can not prove that any of these things are possible, I can prove that they are not. Given this fact, why believe in the fantastical version of events, offered to you only in a single book, with no proof that these frankly impossible happenings did indeed take place?

I personally, would need more, if I am being asked to believe in these amazing, supernatural events.

Your comments please."

[Stewart]

More:

"all it takes to genuinely believe in the existence of Santa is a willingness to believe in the fantastical, supernatural elements that are required for such an individual to exist. If you ignore all the problems associated with a single individual visiting every child in the world (well, at least all of those in countries with the Father Christmas tradition) and just say 'Well Santa and his Elves and his Reindeer are magical, so it could be true', you can believe in him, and be justified in that belief.

In a similar vein, in order to believe in God, you have to except that a lot of what you are now accepting as fact, is fantastical. Jesus can come back to life because he's the son of God, Mary can give birth to Jesus whilst a virgin, because she's the mother of Christ, Gavin the snake (Is the snake named? If so, I apologise, if not, I think 'Gavin' sits rather well) can talk, etc.

Yes, it seems obvious to us that Santa does not exist, but to a child, it is very real. Perhaps to you, the probability of all this supernatural stuff happening is very real, but to me, it all seems like a nice story, nothing more.

I'll give you an example of how I feel, towards people who are deeply religious, and take the Bible word for word.

Lets take a tribe of Indians in the Amazonian Rain Forrest. For the sake of this example, we shall call them thee Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe. Now, the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe worship 'Zengor' Lord of the Sky, Trees and forest animals up to and including 14lbs in weight.

When a thunderstorm racks the Rain Forrest, the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe are very scared.

Oh big momma, they so scared.

Why? Because Zengor is angry! They must have done something to upset him!

And how do they know he is angry? Well, the booming, almighty roar of the God as he vents his anger, and the destructive bolts of doom he throws down upon them, of course.

Now, I know and you know that the almighty roar is simply a thunder-clap, the sound that follows a flash of lightning and is caused by sudden expansion of the air in the path of the electrical discharge, and we also know that the bolts of doom are simply lightning bolts, which has an equally simple, and entirely scientifically defined definition.

So, what to the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuk tribe is a supernatural happening, can be, if you just refuse to believe in all this fantastical stuff, and actually think about things, explained.

Now, sometimes, as I say, I think the deeply religious amongst us, can be placed into the same category as the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuks. 'Jesus died for our sins!' they shout, when surely 'Jesus died because some blokes nailed him to a cross' would be slightly more likely?

You see, you have no reason to believe in the happenings of the Bible, and nor do I. You choose to believe in something that requires a lot of faith to believe in, because, in simple terms, it is so unbelievable. It requires you to believe in miracles, in people rising from the dead, in good old Gavin giving it 'Go on, have an apple, a nice big juicy apple', and various other stuff.

Its just not for me, and to be honest, I think you have to be rather easily pleased, if all you need to convince you of these amazing happenings, is the fact that its written in a book.

This also touches slightly on another issue I have with religion, the 'I'm right, everyone else is wrong' approach.

Christians believe in God, they have a book telling them what happened back in the day, they worship Jesus as the son of God, and they are 100% right. Muslims however, have a slightly different take on the matter, and Hindu's worship different Gods completely, and are just as 100% correct, apparently, as you are.

Vishnu is not worshiped by Christians, as there is only one God. So, if there is only one God, then Vishnu, from your point of view, is just a nice story, but there is no being behind that story. Then we have Hindu Gods, Eqyptian Gods, and of course, Zengor, worshiped by the Nuk-Nuk-A-Nuks.

Everyone is convinced they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Everyone has their stories in their books, and everyone's version is correct. Perhaps if all religious people as a whole, worshiped the same being it would add a bit of much needed credibility to the cause, but what makes your one so special that I should worship him, and accept the version of events that describes his work as told to his chosen people?

Why is he more valid than Vishnu, or Jupiter, or Apollo, or Vesta, or Cupid, or Bacchus, or Plutus, or Siva, or Ganesha, or Lakshimi, or Saraswathi, or Brahama, or Abis, or Bes, or Maat, or Nepthyts, or Osiris, or Ka, or Selket, or Sobek, or, of course, Zengor.

It seems that Gods are ten a penny, I see no reason to believe the stories of one group, over the stories of another. They all rely on blind spiritual acts of faith, and nothing distinguishes them from the others, apart from, perhaps, the willingness to kill in the name of a particular chosen God.

As far as I am aware, you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and as such, is to be followed. Hence all the trouble caused over taking passages from the Bible and applying them to modern life. The bible says that 'man shall not lie with man'. This is the word of God and you are a Christian. Therefore, you have no qualms in admitting that you consider homosexual behaviour abnormal and an affront to God, as per his word in the Bible.

Yes?

Lets be honest mate, if you are prepared to believe in the miracles of the Bible, then you are more than prepared to make this judgement, based on Gods word."

[turkster]

How do these discussions always descend into a flaming war about the existence, or not, of God .

After all supernatural phenomena do not necessarily depend on the existence of God.