NHS "contact-tracing" app .... would you?

[BENBOBBY]

I live on the Isle of Wight where they are triailing the app... tried to download it but isnt compatible with my phone (similar story with my mums phone too)! Not a great start!

[Helios451]

The Government has a very bad record when it comes to how it treats personal data. It has a culture of data gathering and not thinking about the impact on ordinary people. Moreover, some of the individuals advising Boris Johnson have been implicated in serious data protection crimes.

I simply do not trust them.

It's also been claimed that the Govt is pinning all hope on the app, instead of trying everything to ramp up testing and tracing (whatever happened to that objective of recruiting 18,000 contact tracers).

And then they didn't even design the app to work on all species of phone.

So, whilst I certainly do recognise the potential benefit of this, I do not have any confidence that it will be undertaken properly or that the data will be handled responsibly. As such, it's doomed to failure and I won't be taking part.

[ik9000]

I live on the Isle of Wight where they are triailing the app... tried to download it but isnt compatible with my phone (similar story with my mums phone too)! Not a great start!

You've probably dodged a bullet there tbh. What kind of phones out of interest?

[onlyme2]

Why would the authorities need us to install an app to trace our whereabouts, isn't this information already available though service provider's network infrastructure?

[Jonj1611]

Why would the authorities need us to install an app to trace our whereabouts, isn't this information already available though service provider's network infrastructure?

What?

[onlyme2]

What?

Mobile phones always communicate wirelessly with the closest base stations, which makes it possible to determine the sector in which the mobile phone is located and estimate the distance to the base station. Further approximation can be done by interpolating signals between adjacent antenna towers, which could achieve a precision of down to several meters in urban areas where mobile traffic and density of antenna towers (base stations) is sufficiently high, all this can be achieved even with the GPS function turned off.
In several countries this information has been used as evidence in courts of law.

[Jonj1611]

Yeah but whats that got to do with what this thread is about.

The practical aspect of what you say is absolutely crazy, its opt in in this country not opt out, you choose to download the app or are you suggesting that the mobile networks send information without peoples knowledge to some central database? How on earth with the mobile networks know if someone has Covid?

[onlyme2]

Yeah but whats that got to do with what this thread is about.

What I am saying is that a downloadable app is not required, participants consent is what is required to analyze already available data.

[Jonj1611]

And my point is how will the phone network know who has covid or not

[onlyme2]

And my point is how will the phone network know who has covid or not

The phone network is not required to know who is infected, it is required to know the physical location over a certain period of time of individuals who are known to be infected. By analyzing the movements of positively tested Covid cases over a period of a week or two prior to positive test date (period of incubation of the virus when the carrier is contagious without displaying any symptoms), and contacting people who have been in the same geographical location over the same period of time and inviting them for testing in case they got infected by being exposed.

[Jonj1611]

Err but doesn't that require the phone network to know that someone has been infected so it knows who has had covid? Where does it get that information from exactly?

And you say the phone network is not required to know who is infected then in the next sentence say it is required to know the physical location of individuals who are known to be infected. !?!

[onlyme2]

Err but doesn't that require the phone network to know that someone has been infected so it knows who has had covid? Where does it get that information from exactly?

And you say the phone network is not required to know who is infected then in the next sentence say it is required to know the physical location of individuals who are known to be infected. !?!

- Blood tests/ clinical diagnosis determine who is infected.
- Analyzing network data of mobile phones of confirmed cases determines locations infected persons visited.
- Analyzing mobile phone data of above locations, determines mobile phone owners who have been in the same locations at the same time as infected person.

[Jonj1611]

Are you kidding? So you think that is easier than an app do you?

So someone would have to give permission for a phone network to know their medical information so that the phone network can be notified if someone has been tested positive at which point someone has to then ask all phone networks to work together to find out which customer of theirs was in the area at the time. Do you have any idea how much information they would need to store? They would have to store the co-ordinates or rough area of every single customer no matter where they go 24 hours a day for weeks on end. And then after they have somehow managed to work out all the people that "may" have been in the area at the time because if you think they have distance to within a few meters then you don't know how triangulation works they then have to contact them by message and say they "may" have come in contact with someone.

And you think that is easier than just pushing a button on an app?

[onlyme2]

Are you kidding? So you think that is easier than an app do you?

So someone would have to give permission for a phone network to know their medical information so that the phone network can be notified if someone has been tested positive at which point someone has to then ask all phone networks to work together to find out which customer of theirs was in the area at the time. Do you have any idea how much information they would need to store? They would have to store the co-ordinates or rough area of every single customer no matter where they go 24 hours a day for weeks on end. And then after they have somehow managed to work out all the people that "may" have been in the area at the time because if you think they have distance to within a few meters then you don't know how triangulation works they then have to contact them by message and say they "may" have come in contact with someone.

And you think that is easier than just pushing a button on an app?

What does the phone network have to do with people's medical records? the phone network would provide the data to the NHS who in turn contacts people (in the same way the NHS is currently contacting people to cancel their hospital appointments). Isn't that how the app works? and where did I say that such a method would be better than an app?

[Jonj1611]

The app works via bluetooth and from people you have been in close proximity too. I am sorry but how you are working out triangulation and other factors get down to within a few meters is beyond me, do you have any working examples of that?

So you are expecting every phone network to store every single persons movements in a very very rough area 24 hours a day and provide that to the NHS in case they need it? You honestly believe that would be a workable situation? Even before it got off the ground it would be destroyed by privacy laws.

[matts-uk]

Mobile phones always communicate wirelessly with the closest base stations, which makes it possible to determine the sector in which the mobile phone is located and estimate the distance to the base station. Further approximation can be done by interpolating signals between adjacent antenna towers, which could achieve a precision of down to several meters in urban areas where mobile traffic and density of antenna towers (base stations) is sufficiently high, all this can be achieved even with the GPS function turned off.
In several countries this information has been used as evidence in courts of law.

Yes it is possible to track a phone, in the correct circumstance, theoretically to a few meters. That is a long way off mobile operators tracking all phones, in all circumstances, all of the time.

Mobile operators track connections to their towers and are able to locate a phone within a radius of about a mile, being kind. To improve the resolution at all requires another mast in range and to triangulate requires two more masts making three in total. Beyond single mast connection tracking the telco needs to dedicate costly resources to the task.

Yes, the telcos can find the location of a single phone with a fair amount of confidence in an urban area but they need to be looking for it. Before looking for a device the telco will demand to see a warrant and a court order.

If what you are trying to say is they already have the data so it doesn't matter, that is a lazy 'tin foil hat' argument. There are stringent laws surrounding telephony in this country. The Track and Trace app terms of use bypass those laws and specifically allow data to be shared for other purposes.