Vegetarianism

[specofdust]

Vegetarianism is flawed and pointless if chosen on moral grounds. Vegetarianism(as opposed to veganism, which I respect, kind of) implies that the person uses animal products but just doesn't eat meat. This can't work without people eating meat, or without the slaughter of lots of animals. So a vegetarian relies on other people eating meat to keep their animal product usage going.

Veganism is fine, but PETA, peta are evil and deserve something quick and simple.

PETA have all sort of militant tactics that they use against the weak(ever seen a peta hippy go after a women in an expensive fur coat? Ever seen one go after a biker in leathers?) and vulnerable, and claim what they do is ok because they're sticking up for things that don't even have a concept of life or sticking up for something or anything for that matter. Chickens barely register on the intelligence scale, and we, as humans, eating them, is a perfectly natural thing that we've been doing for tens of thousands if not more years.

Organic stuff is fine if you wanna spend the extra money, but it requires 4 times more land to produce the same tonnage of food, so isn't a viable option for the entire world,unless someone wants to build earth an extention.

/rant

edit: theres so much of your post I'd like to quote insanojoe, but I'll restrict myself to this

there would be a surplus of food i.e. no world hunger.

There is already surplus food in the world, quite a lot of surplus food. The reasons there is world hunger are economic and poltical, not due to a lack of food.

edit2: This is a different post, so I'll let myself of with it

you simply cannot provide a social or ethical argument for eating meat

'course you can. I'm bigger, Im better, I've been doing it for millions of years, I like it, it tastes nice, I want to. You don't need a social or ethical arguement for eating meat, you need one for not eating meat, and currently there aren't any that I see as valid. Anthropomorphism has a lot to answer for.

[coco]

ever seen a organic chicken? there is no meat on it. GM is good for the most part.

have you ever tasted it ? tastes much better than chickens raised for quickest dead weight that are bland fatty and tasteless.
And is doesn't contain antibiotic growth promoters.
The trouble is we've been raised with the idea of quantity of meat rather than quality. And yes since eating organic meat i eat less meat, either what i buy or what i kill myself. But i feel much healthier now than ever.

[TheAnimus]

have you ever tasted it ? tastes much better than chickens raised for quickest dead weight that are bland fatty and tasteless.
And is doesn't contain antibiotic growth promoters.
The trouble is we've been raised with the idea of quantity of meat rather than quality. And yes since eating organic meat i eat less meat, either what i buy or what i kill myself. But i feel much healthier now than ever.

Yes, i like my chickens i used to get from my music teacher. They were by far and away the best i've ever eaten, due to the space they had, and the quality of their feed. The GM factor has nothing to do with it, thus organic has nothing to do with it.

The best carrots i've ever had, with most juiceful flavour wern't organic ones. Why would they? Modern fertilisers are better, and allow the food to grow faster. Take grapes, inbreading has got so good now you virtually never find a pip in seedless grapes, which have such a sweet flavour. But now its become a synonym for quality. This is not to do with absanse of GM products.

[Kumagoro]

Go to a good butcher and get something there or try some organic at your local tesco etc.
Now i have the money i buy more organic meat. Also i now drink organic milk which is
only 10p more (a litre) and doesnt come from cows that are over blown milk factories like
the ones normal milk comes from.

There was that supermarket expose recently and they talked about something called
hock burns. hock burns are open wounds etc caused by them sitting in their own filth and
the amnonia in it burns through the skin. Next time your in the supermarket look at the
joints of the chickens leg and see if you can see brown marks.. they are the hock burns
you dont see them on the organic.

I also wonder what a made up story book has to do with this.

[TheAnimus]

Kumangoro, the dairy down the road were my parents live isn't organic, because they use the hormone shot. However it really is top quality, but i hate them because of what they do to the power grid (UPS are essiental there) over blown milk factories, no, the milk monopoly is nasty, its often very small dairies which aren't making much money because of the monopolies in place.

Organic meat, no, again were my parents live, and my grand parents the local butcher tells you which farm it comes from. Its not organic, but its the best meet i've ever eaten.

[insanojoe]

I’m sorry Specofdust your wrong…

You can use a variety of substitutes for animal products, search any given product you have in mind and you will find substitutes. Free range organic milk and eggs if brought from the right sources are also immeasurably better for the animals than the alternatives.

I’m sorry but choosing to not hurt and kill living creatures is not pointless, there is nothing more important… and this is what we’re talking about; living beings that feel pleasure and feel pain, killing is killing intellectual capacity is irrelevant when considering this from a right and wrong perspective.

The fact is we don’t HAVE to exist like this it’s a choice, and just because something has been done for thousands of years doesn’t make it right. As intellectual beings we can change, and should change given our ability to empathise and our responsibility to act in the best interest of all living things.

In terms of not having enough space… your right, there simply isn’t enough earth to go around if you want to kill animals in the best possible way, therefore the solution as I see it is… (drum roll) don’t kill them, you don’t have to accept the greater of two evils.

Finally on PETA, yes they do have extremists among them, but to concentrate on this insignificant faction is to do injustice to the whole debate.

In reply to your edit Specofdust:

Ok back to the whole world hunger thing, this was a side issue and I hate to have to come back to it but I guess I have to. Ok there is a surplus of food, but the land required to produce it is being geared to sell to countries who have more than they need. If so much land wasn’t needed to sell meat to developed countries there would be less of a problem, also since more land would be freed up, less countries would have to produce products solely for export and could concentrate on growing resources they actually need themselves.

“I'm bigger, Im better, I've been doing it for millions of years, I like it, it tastes nice, I want to.”

Is not a social or moral argument, it’s a selfish argument, it’s not morally superior, its not better for society, and therefore its not better for you, its sheer indulgence based on immediate pleasure… and that is no way to make serious choice about anything.

Anthropomorphism has developed because people have related to animals on an emotional level for thousands of years, they have been sources of friendship, inspiration, competition and worship. The fact is we were much closer to nature only a few centuries ago and things like this are in part a means to re-establish our bonds, albeit in a warped manor. To debase the vegetarian/vegan position to a mere cultural fancy shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject.

Ok no more I’m done…

[TheAnimus]

I’m sorry but choosing to not hurt and kill living creatures is not pointless, there is nothing more important… and this is what we’re talking about; living beings that feel pleasure and feel pain, killing is killing intellectual capacity is irrelevant when considering this from a right and wrong perspective.

You see this is were your wrong, how can u justify that its right to not kill?

Surely because i use protection when i engage in the act of sexual intercourse when i'm finacially okay to support a child (even thou it wasn't a stable relationship, and i'm only 20!) i am preventing a life from been created... Is that wrong?

Why is it wrong to kill an animal? I had a wasp in my room last night (i pulled an all nighter to get a project back upto speed) i've an alergy, so i just stuck a glass on it and left it to die. Slowly. I don't feal remotely bad because i've done enough neuroscience to know that they don't actually have the ability to comprehend suffering, sure they have carrot + stick learning methods..... which work for about 3 seconds.

You can't say its wrong to kill an animal, i'm not justifying that its right to, i'm just saying trying to sprinkle some logic into an emotive debate. (which i was hoping was going to turn into me vrs organic shoppers, damn hippies).

[shelley bda]

But surely if we don't cull/kill the animals then we run the risk of Animals being overpopulated, which in turn would lead to disease/virus's with detrimental affects to the Environment and People, btw who would look after the animals ? the farmers wouldn't as there is no profit in it so that would lead to neglect ( are you going to open a ranch and take care of the abandoned animals? hmmm ) like someone else said, this is the way of the country, think about how many industries that would be affected, our economy is a state as it is ( btw this is just my thought, my own opinion, i don't need endless streams of useless info to back me up, i am a country girl i grew up around farms and that way of life ) a good farmer cares about his animals as well as his profit

[menthel]

Please make some sense on a biological ground, not your wishy washy rubbish. And for the fact that it would end world hunger, bah! If we all just sit around eating processed soya (not a good idea for us men, with all of those plant oestogens- feminisation anyone?) then everyone else will carry on killing and eating meat! Do you object to the masaai reguarly bleeding their cows to drink their blood, surely that causes distress to the animals? Probably not in your bizarre wooly liberal world, it will be ok because "its an ancient right and in tune with the animals". Bah! You go off and eat you bean sprouts. If I want to eat meat, using my canines and molars especially degisned for processing meat and using the enzymes within my digestive tract, then I will. Don't forget your suppliments, your going to need them!

[Kumagoro]

I didnt mean that the butcher should be organic just that the meat is fresh and normally
they dont use the lowest of the low meat like you get at the supermarkets.

did you know they supermarket meat is often stored for a couple of years.

[Stormsinger]

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/709.html

A little balance to the PETA proganda. Link is not work safe I would guess for most people, bit of language in there too. Might not like Penn & Teller, but don't let that distract you from the content.

[specofdust]

I’m sorry Specofdust your wrong…
<snippety snip>
Ok no more I’m done…

Oh no you're not , lets just hope I can provide something gut-wrenching enough that you just have to reply, then we can get some decent debate going on on these here forums

Obviously you can use substitutes, but a vegetarian doesn't, thats the whole difference between a vegetarian and a vegan. A vegan doesn't use animal products, a vegetarian uses most animal products, they just dont consume meat, as if by somehow avoiding the most obvious product from an animal the animal will no longer suffer in the slightest by its hooves being used for glue and gelatine, its skin being used for leather or clothing, and its various other parts being used for various other things.

A vegetarian doesn't choose not to hurt or kill, a vegetarian chooses not to consume meat, but still to use and consume other animal products, they are simply picky meat eaters who don't have the balls to go all the way and become a vegan like they really would if they were actually seriously concerned about the animals.

If so much land wasn’t needed to sell meat to developed countries there would be less of a problem

No, there'd be more grains and foods available, but as I previously pointed out, there is already more then enough food. Anyone who thinks the solution, to the rampant starvation in Sub-Saharan Africa and other places where malnutrition is an issue, is more food, is frankly living in a fantasy world. I do agree with the idea that countries that can actually produce food producing subsistance crops as opposed to cash crops would be desirable, but the main centres of malnutrition in the world seem to be ones with terrible regiemes in which crops can barely be grown.

it’s a selfish argument, it’s not morally superior, its not better for society, and therefore its not better for you,

What benefits society benefits me? I the tories all have it wrong then You have yet to explain to me why a selfish arguement is anything other then what I should be using. I like meat, it tastes nice, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't consume it. I don't need moral superiority to make me feel ok with that, or social aproval in order to feel ok about that. Anyway, eating meat isn't based on indulgence, its based on needs, that turned into choices. Way back when our ancestors carried big sticks and threw them at stuff in order to get dinner, animals were a great convenient source of many nutrients that you couldn't easily obtain elsewhere, and they taste nice too. Now, in the year 2005 they're still a convenient source of many things that its harder to get elsewhere, and they still taste great. The simple fact is that people enjoy meat, if they didn't the world would be vegetarian or vegen, but we're not. The rich among us like meat, the poor among us eat meat because its the best way to get plenty of nutrients not available elsewhere.

To debase the vegetarian/vegan position to a mere cultural fancy shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject.

If you insist, but I still think it is. Vegetarianism is the luxury, if you have no food, you eat what you can get. Vegetarians choose not to eat certain things because they have the luxury to make that choice, many people don't. Vegetarianism still requires animal slaughter anyway, a point which you have failed to address I believe. So because vegetarians choose the immediate luxury/indulgence of wearing leather or eating jelly babies animals still die, only they're meat is wasted, yet thats a serious choice?

Anyway, apoligies if that wasn't very coherant, the brain box ain't working so well tonight.

EDIT: Oi menthel, I may be a noob here compared to you, but that last post of yours was one big personal attack. The guys been decent enough to put forward his personal views in the face of basicly everyone elses opposing views, theres no need to insult him

[insanojoe]

Ok quick replies because I’m frustrated with this, I might just go dig up someone’s relative to get my point across instead…

Menthel your clearly just the left of Hitler so I’ll spend the least time with you… I apologise for my “wishy-washy” liberal mind that respects the sanctity of all life (including right wing ****’s … just about). Obviously you didn’t read my last posts or chose not to be influenced by my liberal nonsense, so let me make it simple:

1. Hurt / Killing = Bad (especially simply for pleasure, yes you can be healthy without supplements, there are various vegetarian Olympic champions)
2. Being able to kill and digest something is not a good enough reason to do it, you have a brain (I presume) use it.
3. We have a choice, we don’t have to cause pain, we don’t have to kill, we would also benefit in many other ways.


TheAnimus you ask why it is wrong to kill an animal then give the example of a wasp? A chicken is closer to humans biologically and when people put animal and human deaths on par they get shouted down. It isn’t quite the same thing (and your love juice even less so), but I wouldn’t kill a wasp either… again because I will not end a life. I consider that to be wrong and can’t believe others have trouble understanding that, its about respecting life and respecting nature which relates to many, many more issues.


Shelley bda I can assure that the cows and chickens would not take over, although the numbers would have to be controlled and reduced drastically over time, it would have a massive effect on industry and agriculture, it wouldn’t be easy especially if done ethically but that doesn’t mean it’d be wrong.


Ok I was doing to end it there but I just saw specofdust’s post (damn you), and have to reply, to start with:

“vegetarian … are simply picky meat eaters who don't have the balls to go all the way and become a vegan like they really would if they were actually seriously concerned about the animals.”

It’s harder than that in my experience, I obviously don’t eat meat, but have free range eggs (a friend has chickens, and sometimes I have store brought free-range organic), I try be vegan whenever I can but you are often a source of inconvenience to others when you choose to do so, but your right in a way and I’m working on it.

Ok in terms of the whole land issue I’ve reached the limits of my knowledge and can’t take into account the effects on countries with infertile land and poor resources/relief, I remember reading a compelling article about it somewhere and I’m sure I’m not doing justice to the argument so I’ll stop there. I’m just sure if fields weren’t wasted on grazing land etc to feed the West’s meat needs a lot of people would be much better off.

“What benefits society benefits me?”

Yes! We are all part of one living breathing mass, but I guess this is another large part of the argument where things get even more confusing and contested, but yes I think a better off society makes everyone happier. We live in a selfish world but if everyone was only concerned with their own happiness we’d all be miserable, I don’t think compassion should be limited to our own species; if we were empathetic to each other and towards nature the world would be a much better place for everyone. Now I don’t for a second think that will happen, but I firmly believe compassion breeds compassion on all levels, and that’s what it all comes down to.
I don’t do it because it makes me feel superior and don’t do it for approval, I do it because I think it’s the right thing to do, I do it because I don’t want to cause pain and kill… especially considering the fact I don’t need to… research indicates vegetarians have a longer life span, something like 6 years more and vegans over double that.
I guess what this comes down to is if you think your happiness is the only thing you should be concerned with, and if you look after your own well being and everyone else looks after their own everything will be fine. I don’t think this works… for one we are communal creatures and we require interaction and input from others, without understanding, cooperation and compassion we would only have conflict driven by self-interest (sound familiar?).

“Vegetarianism is the luxury”

The whole vegetarian/vegan line gets blurry here, from the circle of vegetarians I know most still have eggs and milk from free range organic sources (which are four times more expensive than the norm), but they do not wear leather or eat gelatine. True the cow/chicken will still die and will be sold to slaughter, but the numbers involved in these deaths are far fewer than the animals bred for slaughter. If you truly rationalise the process yes it is a bit contrary to eventually pay for the animal’s death, but people need to take different steps depending on the options open to them and the strength of their convictions, it has been a long process for me and it does require some effort in the beginning but after your used to it you couldn’t imagine going back.

Sorry if this is a bit muddled I’m a bit tired now, Thanks for the backup and reply specofdust, apologies if I’m a bit confrontational sometimes.

[coco]

I would hope all people would like all there food animals killed quickly and humanely, but the problem is that most people are divorced from the real cost of their meat, I wonder how many people would continue eating meat if it didn't come in supermarket plastic packages and instead they had to slaughter and butcher the animals themselves. A few people here have said they don't care how cruel their meat is produced, i wonder how many of these have killed and butchered their own meat. I was brought up and taught respect for animals as my family raised and hunted animals.

[Stormsinger]

I would hope all people would like all there food animals killed quickly and humanely, but the problem is that most people are divorced from the real cost of their meat, I wonder how many people would continue eating meat if it didn't come in supermarket plastic packages and instead they had to slaughter and butcher the animals themselves. A few people here have said they don't care how cruel their meat is produced, i wonder how many of these have killed and butchered their own meat. I was brought up and taught respect for animals as my family raised and hunted animals.

Done this, I would in fact rather be in a position to have raised the animals myself, taken them for slaughter and then butcher them/it. I'd be in a much better position to know the animal was healthy and well treated through out it's life and that it was killed 'humanely'.

Human's are omnivores, there are things we need from meat in order to ensure the functioning of our bodies, protein and at least two (I seem to recall) amino acids that our own bodies cannot manufacture, all as part of a balanced diet.

I will, can and do respect the choice of vegetarians/vegans of their lifestyle choice, that is what this world is about, and they have the ability to choose that option. For me though, Man is an omnivore, he has developed the tools to be so (check out your teeth as a basic display on that, nice sharp incisors at the front for ripping your meat up, big flat molars at the back for grinding your vegetable matter on at the back). Everyone has the right to choose their particular meat/non-meat lifestyle, but don't expect everyone to like your choice, either way, but that is exactly what it is, a choice to either eat or not eat meat (unless you have some dietary/allergic/phobia/medical reason that restricts your food intake, in which case, that's different).

[TheAnimus]

1. Hurt / Killing = Bad (especially simply for pleasure, yes you can be healthy without supplements, there are various vegetarian Olympic champions)
2. Being able to kill and digest something is not a good enough reason to do it, you have a brain (I presume) use it.
3. We have a choice, we don’t have to cause pain, we don’t have to kill, we would also benefit in many other ways.

TheAnimus you ask why it is wrong to kill an animal then give the example of a wasp? A chicken is closer to humans biologically and when people put animal and human deaths on par they get shouted down. It isn’t quite the same thing (and your love juice even less so), but I wouldn’t kill a wasp either… again because I will not end a life. I consider that to be wrong and can’t believe others have trouble understanding that, its about respecting life and respecting nature which relates to many, many more issues.

I used a wasp rather than a chicken, because i've not killed a chicken for my own amusement lately. The point i was trying to make is a wasp has no long or short term memory worth regarding. Think how insects like moths fly towards a light bulb, ouch too hot, back up, ooh pretty light, ouch too hot back up. Take an insect a fish tank, seal it in, and see how long it does that cycle for, until something stronger overcomes its sensory analysis than the light bulb, it will never break that cycle. Its not intelegent, it has no soul, theres no way you could miss it (as its impossible for them to learn personalities other than genetic mutation).

Now the point i make often to test peoples ability to think rationally is i feal better buying battery farm chicken rather than nice free range ones (proper outdoor living in hudge area free range). Why? Because if the chicken has been suffering its a mercy killing. If it had been living life in a great manner its horrible. Its quite philosophical and a lot of people don't like to come to terms with it, but take humans, if a child is abused from birth, its more common (apparently) for it to think its normal, and the really big emotional damage dosen't happen, until its told its wrong. It will never realise its wrong, or that it doesn't like it without the help of society (external influence). For instance I think that its perfectly okay to share a bed with a girl who ur just friends with, and not do anything sexual or expect it to happen. Other people think thats not normal, but to me it is very normal, so i think nothing of it, and consiquently don't think of the emotions she might be fealing towards me.

What i'm trying to say is its not right for you to make judgements about death been wrong when its coursed for food. If you think of chaos theory, how many people have YOU killed? I hope you see were i am going with this philopshophical debate.

Is killing a wasp more wrong than killing the contents of my HDD. What if i said the HDD had a cure for cancer or something on it. Humans are fundimentally machines, thats one of my beliefs, and i am also at peice with the fact i'm not a perfect person. As such when my first pet died, it wasn't a biggie, i've felt like this from an early age, i realise theres no heaven, its just no longer doing anything, and the people to feal sorry for aren't 'lucky' (the bunny) but infact everyone who interacted with him.