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About LinkBacksThats the worst guess in the history of guessing.Originally Posted by Hans Voralberg
Thats the worst guess in the history of guessing.
Joe, I would like to apologise for my unwarranted attack in my second post. Its just that I found your posts very judgemental, and I don't think that your choice in different lifestyle gives you the right to judge us. Tha doesn't excuse my earlier post though. I personally stand by my own right to eat meat because I like to. But also it is a fact that certain nutrients are much better absorbed from meat than plants/fungi. I am happy that you are healthy with your diet, but I have seen people become unwell because of nutrient deficiencies. I see no shame in taking suppliments.
Anyway, thanks for putting up with my unpleasant second post, and it is nice to have you here!
Last edited by menthel; 28-10-2005 at 01:56 PM.
Not around too often!
Is it okay for a cat to torture a mouse, yet its not for us too? (its not better for the mouse because we know we're evil when the cat dosen't)
Now don't take this the wrong way, but i think your lacking the depth in your logic, you need to look further in detail, you can't just be emotional. Now what i'm effectivly saying is death isn't really that bad, you really should make peice with that because i hate to break it to you, your going to die.
The point i was making is if you treat a "living creature" in an awful way, it might not know that its an awful way. Simple experiments with dogs show this point.
The fact that you called it a living creature is the problem i have, something like an insect is clearly not capable to understand torture. It can feal pain, but not comprehend complicated ideas like been miserable and relative pains. So using the phrase "living creature" is needlessly emotive, which makes the debate harder for my side (as its hard to be logical rather than just simple and emotional, which i guess is what i think your been).
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
Right, that's it, from now on, wallet permitting, I'm only eating Wagyu beef that's comes from massaged and pampered cows... if only I could afford to do that!
I wanted to be flippant and say that I had to go out and fetch a KFC straight after, but it's not a pleasant video, not at all. It's not likely to put me off eating meat - I tried being vegetarian for a month before, and had huge cravings for bacon and beef. I also doubt it's representative of the majority, since as already pointed out they'd pick the most shocking footage...
Some of the footage just seemed pointless, anyway - they seem to think that shooting a bolt through the head of a crippled animal is inhumane - how, when they've just been complaining about leaving the animals to suffer? They can't have it both ways.
I'm married to a vegetarian, so I don't eat meat most evenings, but I do most lunchtimes. Many vegetarians find it difficult to get enough of certain nutrients in their diets (particularly Iron), so telling people to just give up meat there and then is not particularly responsible, and promoting veganism without careful lifestyle and diet consideration even more so.
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Oh gosh I can’t believe I’m going to post more… ok this is just going to be a cut and paste job as my words seem ineffectual thus far, most of this stuff is avoiding the moral issue which is harder to “prove”…
“In addition to the 56.3 million km2 of grazed grasslands, about 25% of the world's croplands are used to grow livestock feed. 37% of global grain production is fed to animals (00W1) and 12% of global beef- and mutton production is derived from grain. These figures are made all the more impressive by the fact (discussed below) that the world's grazing-livestock population (1838 million Animal-Units not counting the grain-fed portion) exceeds the carrying capacity of the world's grazing lands by a factor of 1.7-2.0.”
Source: http://home.alltel.net/bsundquist1/og1.html
“The United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) estimates that the world will lose one-third of its arable lands through desertification by the end of the century…” through clearing forests for grazing and over-cultivating croplands to feed farm animals. The rainforest, one of the most important yet delicate ecosystems on earth, is being cleared in record numbers to make room for cattle farms.”
Source: http://www.lehigh.edu/~kaf3/books/reporting/desert.html
“…there is a simple conservation argument for vegan living. A vegan requires just one eighth of the land needed to feed a meat eater. As the population of the world skyrockets, so does the shortage of land and resources.”
Source: http://www.thestudentunderground.org...&ArticleID=277
The rest from here: http://www.brook.com/veg/ there’s much more info on the site…
“More than 4,000 gallons (15,000 liters) of water are needed to produce a single day’s worth of food for the typical meat eater. In comparison, an ovo-lacto vegetarian requires only 1,200 gallons (4,500 l) of water, and a vegan needs a mere 300 gallons (1,135 l).”
Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook
“People who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease… People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest and tended to avoid chronic disease. These results could not be ignored.”
Dr. T. Colin Campbell, The China Study
“Not only is mortality from coronary heart disease lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians, but vegetarian diets have also been successful in arresting coronary heart disease. Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for…obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer.”
American Dietetic Association
“All new infectious diseases of human beings to emerge in the past 20 years have had an animal source.”
Lancet, 24 January 2004, 363(9405):257
“The human appetite for animal flesh is a driving force behind virtually every major category of environmental damage now threatening the human future---deforestation, erosion, fresh water scarcity, air and water pollution, climate change, biodiversity loss, social injustice, the destabilization of communities, and the spread of disease.”
Editors, World Watch, July/August 2004
“We could support more people on Earth for a given area of land farmed if we ate lower on the food chain.”
Patricia Muir, Ph.D., Oregon State University
“Giant livestock farms, which can house hundreds of thousands of pigs, chickens, or cows, produce vast amounts of waste. In fact, in the U.S., these ‘factory farms’ generate more than 130 times the amount of waste that people do…[and have] polluted more than 27,000 miles (44,000 km) of rivers and contaminated groundwater in dozens of states.”
Natural Resources Defense Council
“[Feeding grain to animals and then eating them is] highly inefficient, and an absurd use of resources.”
Vaclav Smil, Ph.D., University of Manitoba
“When those who have the money to enjoy meat-rich diets cause the market to redirect available supplies of grain away from the tables of people who cannot pay in order to feed livestock to provide meat to those who can, they contribute to the dynamics of hunger.”
John Cavanagh & Jerry Mander, eds., Alternatives to Economic Globalization
“The time will come when people such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of people.”
Leonardo da Vinci
This was just a quick search but I have seen a lot of these fact before from other sources so I’m quite sure of their validity, again please feel free to research it yourself, these people don’t just make this stuff up.
To menthel… no problem I’ve said a lot worse stuff to better people than me =P And I was (/am?) being judgemental.
Perhaps it's just the way you say it.I'm not like hitler really and am probably more liberal than you on other topics! Anyways, just keep believing in what you believe in and I will keep on eating meat and treating the vege's who don't manage to balance their diets!
Not around too often!
Who are we to disagtree with somone from the University of Manitoba..... Or the 'Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook'...
Damn beat me to it. What's logically right is not necessarily right for everyone.
Most importantly, if the system changed to your ideals just because your 'against animals' because you've brought in your 'emotions', you do realise your idealisms would ruin the ecosystem that we rely on?
As i clicked this i'm eating sweet and sour chicken, i'll watch it when i've finished.
It's not so much the validity of those facts that matters (although I don't entirely trust them), it's the conclusions that are drawn from the claims.
For example:
Oooh... sounds bad. But it isn't. Is the water destroyed during this process? No, of course it isn't. It just keeps going through the water cycle, circulating its merry way around the world.
The quote sounds shocking. But it is of no significance whatsoever.
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thats american and i don't think that it will be like that here in britian
Please write your complaint legibly in that box -->[].
i so wanted to say that first.
Am i the only person who failed to find one respectable source on the list? I've been told my standards are too high in the past.
But to be fair he said ignoring the moral standards, which i thought was the whole point of PETA?
Tbh i'd sooner trust something Mc Donalds said than something PETA said.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
Vegetarians all have a confirmation bias and mindlessly spew the EXACT same flawed argument every time from their perceived high moral ground. I went through this with a flatmate 2 years ago as he arrogantly suggested that I am a caveman.
Look, the bottom line is that all of the 'facts' they give about health, environment, etc. can easily be refuted. Their main argument is the moral one, which can't be empirically argued. They should stick to this one so they don't look like such quacks.
Ok people like I said it was a quick search using others words, if you find anything there compelling but doubt its validity… again research it yourself! I’ve spent far too much time on this already, and have a feeling even if I did take the time to find the proof it would fall on deaf ears anyway.
Rajagra water consumption is extremely important it’s not just as simple “it goes back into the cycle” there are so many more issues than that to consider. It relates directly to energy consumption which again is something that will become increasingly more important in the future; the more energy we consume the more we hurt nature the more we hurt nature the more we hurt ourselves…
TheAnimus I’m sorry but no matter how many anecdotes of your sexual exploits or all those ‘I could have if I wanted to situations’ you use, you will never convince me my logic is flawed for not comparing a pig to an insect on an intellectual or emotional level. Also your argument on mercy and life expectations is completely flawed, we cause the pain we cause the deaths simply minimising the suffering or ending it quickly does not make it “ok”. Oh and yes it is better for a cat to kill a mouse than it is for us to, quite simply because we have cognitive functions higher than any other animal and should hold ourselves to higher standards than killing because we can/find it pleasurable.
Smtkr I feel sorry for people that need to kill in order to feel good about themselves… can’t you see something wrong with that? I know for you to do anything outside of dominant social ideals must seem crazy but if we didn’t the human race would never advance. Oh and please offer me some evidence that it is more efficient in terms of land and energy use to eat meat I’d seriously love to see it, but I doubt very much I will because it’s quite simply impossible. Think about it you have to grow the food to feed the animals which we then eat, these various processes produce so much waste and energy loss that it simply cannot be more efficient in any given situation.
Final, final words… seriously I’m done after this.
In terms of land use and energy consumption veganism/vegetarianism is far more efficient, that’s a fact.
Animals can emotionally situate themselves in situations and change their behaviour based on the emotional state of another living being, they feel pain and fear, they have memory, they can enjoy life. To say it is wrong to bring emotion into the argument to me seems crazy, it’s the same logic that people use to commit acts of atrocities against one another, just because we become used to barbarism doesn’t make it right.
In terms of health, there is no evidence to suggest a vegan/vegetarian diet is less healthy than eating meat/animal produce, to the contrary as mentioned before vegans have a significantly higher life expectancy and are far less likely to die from some of the major killers e.g. heart disease. There are also many world class athletes who are vegans/vegetarians, that alone should end all criticisms; however people seem to be suggesting you need supplements to be healthy as a vegan, this just isn’t true.
There has been some criticisms leveled at the vegan diet in terms of a lack of amino acids and iron, but to counter this one simply needs to eat seeds, nuts and unrefined grains as well as legumes, this will give you all the amino acids you require, and they can be really tasty =D
“Dried beans and dark leafy green vegetables are especially good sources of iron, better on a per calorie basis than meat. Iron absorption is increased markedly by eating foods containing vitamin C along with foods containing iron. Vegetarians do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than do meat eaters.”
Source: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm
Our meet eating habits have also spawned various diseases and illnesses which have cost many human and even more animal lives, it has also greatly contributed to much environmental damage (ozone depletion, land/river pollutions and destruction), because of the waste products and high amounts of energy/land required.
If we can finally establish that it is just as healthy to eat vegan or even more so, and eating in this fashion is far more efficient in terms of land use and energy/water consumption then the question is why eat meat?
Because I can…
It is in our power to do a lot of terrible things, pick up a history book…
Because I like it…
Selfishness will not make a better world, and if we’re not here to do that what are we here to do?
Because they’re just animals…
They are weak we are strong, that doesn’t give us the right kill them, they are complex living beings, who feel emotion and react to it in others.
Because they would die without us…
A cycle of suffering and death, or even just death is not worth preserving, we kill billions of animals a year… it is better to end the cycle.
Because they are treated with care…
Some farms do treat their animals well, but no matter how well they are treated they are still our slaves and killed for our pleasure, that can’t be right.
By the way I’m not a member of PETA or anything like that, no media made me stop eating animal produce… one day I just stopped and asked why?
Drawing a line under this now… thanks for reading even if you disagree.
Well what do you know, I agree with you again
That video is what we call propaganda, of course they couldn't find that the majority of the farms where animals are raised for food are actually guilty of animal cruelty so they only focus on the one or two that are...so of course it would look bad...in fact their documenting style is very similar to Michael Moore's...
With such editing and documenting techniques I could make Tony Blair and George W. Bush Jr. look like friendly, transparent and fluffy people...
My point is, I'm happy with the meat I eat, yeah some farms physically abuse their animals but clearly this is only a very, very small fraction of the farms... and as Rave said we'rethe dominant species on this planet, we've become so because we can eat both meat and plants and as such we shouldn't be grossed into not eating meat.
I'll eat for as long as I'm able and theres not a damn thing anyone can do about it
vegetables have feelings too
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