Saddam Sentenced to Death...

[Bazzlad]

The point I tried to make is the same, get in, get the Dictator out, stay until democracy starts to form and a security/police force start to form, then leave it be. As for Ireland - we gave back 3/4's and the last bit wants to stay British. Respect that choice - they had the vote.

[Byatt]

The point I tried to make is the same, get in, get the Dictator out, stay until democracy starts to form and a security/police force start to form, then leave it be.

I'm assuming that you've either forgotten to add "and peace eventually occurs" to the end of this, otherwise you've effectively conceded the point I was arguing and the rest of this post isn't required reading.

My point is that the invasion/occupation/partition of Ireland didn't occur like that, which is why I question the validity of this methodology.

More explicitly, I'm not stating that it won't work, I am merely stating that it is still a highly experimental (and, in this case, massively bungled - wargames study in the US reckoned ~400k troops would've been required to prevent civil war post invasion, and they sent nothing like that many) approach to nation building.

Also, given the current evidence (insurgency getting worse, us/uk public demanding timeline for withdrawal) we're not even going to see that methodology put into action.

Simpler still - in my opinion, expecting a western style democracy to fluorish in Iraq is at best extremely hopeful and at worst horrendously misguided given the current political situation (both here, in the US and there).

As for Ireland - we gave back 3/4's and the last bit wants to stay British. Respect that choice - they had the vote.

Um...OK, wasn't thinking of going on a reunification campaign anyway, what gave you the idea that I did?

[Steve B]

why dont we just leave it to the iraqi government to decide what to do with him. personally, i opt not to care either way

[chicken]

I vote for death by burning-oil-field

[Kezzer]

I vote for death by burning-oil-field

It could be like the crystal maze only with blood, guts, pain and suffering

[neonplanet40]

The point I tried to make is the same, get in, get the Dictator out, stay until democracy starts to form and a security/police force start to form, then leave it be. As for Ireland - we gave back 3/4's and the last bit wants to stay British. Respect that choice - they had the vote.

Lol you's gave a vote?!?!?! (it was a no win vote) And also england made sure that the north was mainly unionist so that they would have the majority but now the change is 49% to 51% probably why there hasnt been another vote) . That is why at the last minute they changed the original 9 county ulster to a 6 county ulster when drawing together the partition of ireland.

And i can never respect a choice that goes against my beliefs. The 3/4's was given back because they couldnt control it. Just like what is happening in afghanistan and iraq. Its oinly a matter of time before all hits the fan. Vietnam comes to mind. Waste of lives and time.

[Bazzlad]

Lol you's gave a vote?!?!?! (it was a no win vote) And also england made sure that the north was mainly unionist so that they would have the majority but now the change is 49% to 51% probably why there hasnt been another vote) . That is why at the last minute they changed the original 9 county ulster to a 6 county ulster when drawing together the partition of ireland.

And i can never respect a choice that goes against my beliefs. The 3/4's was given back because they couldnt control it. Just like what is happening in afghanistan and iraq. Its oinly a matter of time before all hits the fan. Vietnam comes to mind. Waste of lives and time.

*Cough*
A plurality of the present-day population (38%) define themselves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither,[5] 59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom, while 22% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland
*Cough*

You'll find there's no need for another vote. It's British and will stay that way.

[Bazzlad]

Also, given the current evidence (insurgency getting worse, us/uk public demanding timeline for withdrawal) we're not even going to see that methodology put into action.

Is it? Insurgency is getting worse? Show me figures. Are you sure it doesn't look that way due to the massive amount of media covering it 24/7 now? How many times before this war did you read headlines of
"Man killed in Iraq"?
Non.
Insurgency is to be expected. Stay there whilst the new Government trains its Police and Army, and then leave them to Govern. It'll be a long, hard haul, but it'll be better for everyone in the end - to live in a Dictator free Country. Don't believe me? Go ask the people who live in Saddam's home town.

[Byatt]

Is it? Insurgency is getting worse? Show me figures. Are you sure it doesn't look that way due to the massive amount of media covering it 24/7 now?

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/ir...ex20061030.pdf

Although the non-military stuff is quite hopeful - bear in mind this is all done on government data.

[Merlin4458]

Owned himself tbh. Glad hes going down

[neonplanet40]

*Cough*
A plurality of the present-day population (38%) define themselves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither,[5] 59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom, while 22% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland
*Cough*

You'll find there's no need for another vote. It's British and will stay that way.

Lol and how is it Brittish? If most catholics calls themselves irish ten they cant be brittish? Like i said. ulster was made to make unionists the majority. But it isnt brittish. N.ireland is nothing like england.

You's see yourselves and your country as brittish over here its only the protestants who see themselves as brittish. The indifferent oens see themselves as northern irish and the catholics see themselves as irish. Dont beleive everything you read. As you have said about iraq. The media can give false impressions.

I can assure you that before i die there will be a united ireland. Not through violence but through politics.

[Bazzlad]

I can assure you that there won't be. It's a part of the British Isles.
My proof? Watch the Northern Ireland VS England WCQ football match. Who sang God Save the Queen the loudest?

"You's see yourselves and your country as brittish over here its only the protestants who see themselves as brittish. The indifferent oens see themselves as northern irish and the catholics see themselves as irish."

I love it. Yes the protestants see themselves as British. Newsflash- they're the MAJORITY.The Catholics do see themselves as Irish, but they also see bombing civilian targets in Birmingham as a valid argument.

Northern Ireland will stay British. Not cause I want it, or because England/Britain wants it, but because the NORTHERN IRISH want it.

59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom.

Argue with that.

[neonplanet40]

There is only one community here that supports that team and the reason for that is because it is covered in loyalist paramilitary flags and is followed (or at least used to be followed) by a largely sectarian crowd.

I know protestants are the majoirty. I think ive said that 5 times now. Ulster was MADE for them to be a majority. That was the point.Cathloics could never win a vote here unless 1/2 the protestants in n.i didnt turn out for the votes. When ireland was split there was no vote that asked people if they wanted it or not.

LOL so you think because they sang a song the loudest means that they are more Brittish or something? Maybe they just wanted to be louder than you ? Who knows, i know that i and every other catholic i know would never sing to that song as it isnt our national anthem but thats another matter. And to base your proof on that is hardly solid.

You cant assure nothing. All you can give is your opinion which is what i am doingand i think that it will happen. The republic was part of the brittish isles and isnt no more. So its not like it hasnt happened before.

As for your Birmingham argument. That was a war in our eyes and the brittish done alot of terrible things over here so thats a one sided argument you have given. Ira has done alot of terrible things too. But in retaliation to what was done to us. We both will have biased views so this argument wouldnt go anywhere anytime soon.

Think of it like this, If Germany had of won the second world war and occupied England would you of just got over it and went on with your life or would you and your country have fought for their freedom? I know which one id pick.

[Bazzlad]

Northern Ireland is British. The majority of the people there are British. They want to be British they voted British they are British. Your counter argument is like me saying Asians in England can't have a vote because I don't agree with them being there.

You have a one sided, narrow minded argument - you can't help but do so - you've said many times that you're biased, and you're a Catholic. However, Northern Ireland means nothing to me, and I couldn't careless what happens, but I can tell you - I can't see it going back.

"As for your Birmingham argument. That was a war in our eyes and the brittish done alot of terrible things over here"

So you're justifying the killing of innocent people because you were in a "war"?

To quote the great Bono:
"They don't talk about the glory of killing for the revolution. What's the glory in takin' a man from his bed and gunnin' him down in front of his wife and his children? Where's the glory in that? Where's the glory in bombing a Rememberance Day parade of old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day. Where's the glory in that? To leave them dyin', or crippled for life, or dead, under the rubble of a revolution that the majority of the people of my country don't want."

[neonplanet40]

You ever hear of bloody sunday? You trying to tell me your soldiers shooting defenceless civilians was ok then? Innocent people in iraq are being killed because of the "war on terror" and people dont seem to see much of a problem with that.

Because if they did then britain and america wouldnt be there. My point is that its not as if one side was good and one was bad. Both done bad things and you can defend the brittish killing civillians for whatever reason u want. Just like i can say that in a war there is casualties and they were no worse than what was going on here. You think england got it bad then try living here while it went on.

As for bono he is a hypocrite who cares for nothing but money.

Neon

EDIT: I have to apologise for my typos. I can type fast but just not too accuratly.

[Bazzlad]

Just like i can say that in a war there is casualties and they were no worse than what was going on here. You think england got it bad then try living here while it went on.

You have no one to blame but yourselves:

Republican paramilitaries have contributed to nearly 60% (2055) of these. Loyalists have killed nearly 28% (1020) while the security forces have killed just over 11% (362) with 9% percent of those attributed to the British Army.

I'll admit Bloody Sunday was a low, but was it any worse than any of the innocent British Soliders murdered by Republicans for doing ther jobs? Do their lives mean less? 13 died that day, what about the 499 British Soliders murdered?

Responsibility for killing [2]
Responsible party No.
Republican Paramilitary Groups 2055
Loyalist Paramilitary Groups 1020
Security Forces 362
Persons unknown 80