I think I've found my perfect partner: GTS 250

[Zak33]

I think I've found the right thing to buy. At last.

Needs to be 9.5 inches long, with power connector on top edge to fit Sugo case: check
Needs to be a massive jump up in performance from the aged X1900 XT : check
Needs to be efficient with power and temps as it's on 2d a lot of the time: check http://www.hexus.net/content/item.ph...=17411&page=11
Would be best to be rear venting, not into the case: check
Needs to only have one pwer connector requirement: check

I've been sitting on the 4830 / 4850 edge for so long.. just waiting.. and the 4830's have all but died now..
(nb: I can't mentally justify dropping to a 128 bit memory interface, cos I really believe, in all my heart, that it's a backwards step. I know GDDR5 is supposed to make up the difference in the new 4770 (4830 replacement) but I just dont see it... when the bullets are whizzing, and the frame rate drops to the floor, you need a strong bus, nice and wide.)

So I think the GTS 250 is the kiddy.

If it plays CoD4 and 5 well it's top of the list... ATI have always done so, but http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=17411&page=7 it seems these babies do too.

I still see no point in 1 gig of ram, in terms of cost, as my 22" monitor won't go high enough and tbh a 24" prolly wont either, as I always drop the detail settings when playing fast online.

So... you video card boffins... mess up my day, or reassure me pls

I'm thinking EVGA Super Clocked 512 model.
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/512MB...s-2xDVI-I-HDTV

Any thing else to consider?

[DanceswithUnix]

You seem to keep graphics cards for some time, so go for a 1GB version. I'm sure at *some* point the texture storage requirement will overtake your card, they always do.

Wide memory vs high clocked memory? For a CPU the higher latency of narrower ram would matter, but in a graphics card with thousands of threads running at the same time I think the latency is well hidden and only bandwidth matters.

[CK_1985]

The 250 does seem a reasonable choice in your case, but I'd be tempted to go for the XFX model which is now under £100 inc... I know it's XFX (and everyone seems to hate them) but it's fully £45 cheaper than the BFG, and at this price point that is a huge difference!

Unless, as Dances says, you are planning to keep it for a looong time - in which case I'd go for the 1gig EVGA for extra longevity and solid warranty.

[PeterStoba]

Or get the 9800GTX+, if it meets your requirements, as it's the same card?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

(nb: I can't mentally justify dropping to a 128 bit memory interface, cos I really believe, in all my heart, that it's a backwards step. I know GDDR5 is supposed to make up the difference in the new 4770 (4830 replacement) but I just dont see it... when the bullets are whizzing, and the frame rate drops to the floor, you need a strong bus, nice and wide.)

??????????????????????? Instead of trying to sell the 256bit memory interface to yourself why don't you actually wait for some reviews!!?? If anything this silly argument has been going on for years!! What about a 512bit memory bus vs a 256bit memory bus argument that has been going on for years. Did it make a huge difference between the HD2900 series and the HD3800 series?? No it did not. Look at the GTS250 which is faster than an 8800GTX despite having a narrower memory bus and less video RAM. They both have 128 shaders too!!

What about the 7600GT and 6800GT? The latter had 128 bit memory access but was faster than the 256 bit memory access 6800GT in most games.

Why does it matter how many bits the memory access a graphics card uses as long as it is fast enough for the job??? As long as the memory bandwidth is similar it makes no difference TBH.

Also the RV740 GDDR5 is meant to be an HD4830 replacement.

In the following preview with an engineering model it is 10% faster than the HD4830 with a 256 bit memory interface at all resolutions:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon...preview-test/7

The production card is meant to be clocked another 100mhz higher(750mhz) it seems which means it could have similar performance to an HD4850.

The RV740 GDDR5 also has a dual slot cooler and consumes 80w at load. Since it is a 40nm card it will be interesting to see what core frequencies it can be overclocked too.

I've been sitting on the 4830 / 4850 edge for so long.. just waiting.. and the 4830's have all but died now..

You can get an XFX HD4830 for £75 from multiple retailers:

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/159719

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/s....html?XFX-4830

There are plenty of HD4830 cards available at the moment.

I think I've found the right thing to buy. At last.

Needs to be 9.5 inches long, with power connector on top edge to fit Sugo case: check
Needs to be a massive jump up in performance from the aged X1900 XT : check
Needs to be efficient with power and temps as it's on 2d a lot of the time: check http://www.hexus.net/content/item.ph...=17411&page=11
Would be best to be rear venting, not into the case: check
Needs to only have one pwer connector requirement: check

I've been sitting on the 4830 / 4850 edge for so long.. just waiting.. and the 4830's have all but died now..

So I think the GTS 250 is the kiddy.

If it plays CoD4 and 5 well it's top of the list... ATI have always done so, but http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=17411&page=7 it seems these babies do too.

I still see no point in 1 gig of ram, in terms of cost, as my 22" monitor won't go high enough and tbh a 24" prolly wont either, as I always drop the detail settings when playing fast online.

So... you video card boffins... mess up my day, or reassure me pls

I'm thinking EVGA Super Clocked 512 model.
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/512MB...s-2xDVI-I-HDTV

Any thing else to consider?

The XFX GTS250 is better value for money for just £100:

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/512MB...DTV-DVI-Retail

You will need to make sure that is a single power connector model as some GTS250 512mb cards were just simply rebranded 9800GTX+ cards with two power connectors and the longer PCB. This means higher power consumption too!! Strangely the 1gb and 2gb had the revised PCB and single power connector standard from the reviews I have seen.

There is also this EVGA GTS250 1gb SC for around £125:

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/s...e.html?EVG-251

Novatech have free postage too!!

NO GTS250 is worth £145 especially when the much faster GTX260 and HD4870 are a similar price!!

You do realise that the HD4870 is 9.5" in total length. Also if you use ATI Tray Tools you can set the 2D clocks quite low too!! My HD4830 for instance is set to 160mhz core and 350mhz RAM in 2D mode and when gaming the normal clocks are restored automatically.

[jim]

Or get the 9800GTX+, if it meets your requirements, as it's the same card?

On Scan at the moment they only have two 9800GTX+ cards, and they are both more expensive than the GTS 250 equivalents. Might take some shopping around on that one to save some money.

[scaryjim]

Or get the 9800GTX+, if it meets your requirements, as it's the same card?

It is longer and requires 2 PCIe power connectors. So no, it doesn't meet the OP's requirements

CAT: The 4870 has the power connectors on the back edge of the card rather than that top, so you need extra space to allow for the connectors. Also, again, 2 connectors!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It is longer and requires 2 PCIe power connectors. So no, it doesn't meet the OP's requirements

CAT: The 4870 has the power connectors on the back edge of the card rather than that top, so you need extra space to allow for the connectors. Also, again, 2 connectors!

Far enough but the GTS250 is overpriced at Scan.

The OP should get the 1gb version of the EVGA GTS250 from Novatech for £125 delivered!!

Alternatively the XFX GTS250 512mb looks good for £100 too.

[PeterStoba]

It is longer and requires 2 PCIe power connectors. So no, it doesn't meet the OP's requirements

CAT: The 4870 has the power connectors on the back edge of the card rather than that top, so you need extra space to allow for the connectors. Also, again, 2 connectors!

My bad.

https://secure.scan.co.uk/aspnet/Sho...oductId=998279 £97 then. bargain!

[kalniel]

(nb: I can't mentally justify dropping to a 128 bit memory interface, cos I really believe, in all my heart, that it's a backwards step. I know GDDR5 is supposed to make up the difference in the new 4770 (4830 replacement) but I just dont see it... when the bullets are whizzing, and the frame rate drops to the floor, you need a strong bus, nice and wide.)

Zak, what's the bigger number - 256x2 or 128x4?

[Zak33]

the two power connectors is an issue for several reasons. Space for them, and PSU drain.

Lots of 9800 GTX and GTX+ cards are vast... there WAS a shorterversion, which Scan did under their own label, and so I know they exist, but the GTS 250 is same and lets face it... when I ebay it, will be the newer model for the public to buy.

I kept this X1900 longer than almost any card... it's simply an amazing card.

BUT..... to CAT THE FIFTH... you're bang on the money most of the time, but its (through no fault of your own) from reading, not from experience.
I've owned both 6800GT and 7600 GT, and I assure you with all my heart, the benchmarks and real life are totally different.

Benchmarks are almost ALWAYS average frame rate. Agreed, the 7600 GT went faster at it's fastest.

BUT the 6800 GT never dropped as low as the 7600 GT did. It was vastly smoother on big maps, with lots of players, and the high-low-high frame rate movements were not as noticeable.

Thats from experience, not reviews.

[Zak33]

Zak, what's the bigger number - 256x2 or 128x4?

42 ....why?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

BUT..... to CAT THE FIFTH... you're bang on the money most of the time, but its (through no fault of your own) from reading, not from experience.
I've owned both 6800GT and 7600 GT, and I assure you with all my heart, the benchmarks and real life are totally different.

You have not explained the shift from a wider memory bus to a narrower one in both the G92 and RV670 from the G80 and R600. Look at the shift from the RV670 to the RV770. The HD4850 was much faster than the HD3870 but had less bandwidth too since the latter used faster GGDR4. In fact the 2900XT GDDR4 had a 512bit memory bus unlike the 256bit memory bus in the HD3870 GDDR4 and both were very similar in performance. Considering that the HD4830 with its lower clocked GDDR3 is faster than both the 2900XT GDDR4 and HD3870 GDDR4 is tantamount to the fact that memory bandwidth is not the most important factor in determining graphics card performance.

TBH you are generalising too much here. I have owned both the HD3870 and HD4830 BTW.

Benchmarks are almost ALWAYS average frame rate.
Thats from experience, not reviews.

I agree so this is why I think it is better to check reviews which show charts of the actual framerates during play. This is what [H] Enthusiast and PC Perspective use.

BUT the 6800 GT never dropped as low as the 7600 GT did. It was vastly smoother on big maps, with lots of players, and the high-low-high frame rate movements were not as noticeable.

Thats from experience, not reviews.

I have also had the 6600GT,6800LE ,6800LE GDDR3(unlocked fully and overclocked to 6800GT),7600gt,7900gs and 8800GTS 512mb BTW.

There is one GIANT flaw in your reasoning. Both the 6800GT and 7600GT used GDDR3. The 7600GT used 700mhz GDDR3(22.4 GB/s) whereas the 6800GT had 1000mhz GDDR3(32.0 GB/s) bandwidth. So the 6800GT had 50% more bandwidth anyway. TBH the 7600GT was faster in games for me so YMMV.

However the RV740 GDDR5 uses GDDR5 not GDDR3. Hence it has around the same bandwidth as a HD4830 and HD4850 using GDDR3.

Remember that GDDR5 is quad data rate(4x) as opposed to GDDR3 which is dual data rate(2x).

If you want the same bandwidth as 900mhz GDDR3 over a 256bit bus then 900mhz GDDR5 will provide the same bandwidth over a 128bit bus.

Anyway I going to actually look for the reviews of the RV740 GDDR5 first TBH. If there are any issues with stuttering during games I am sure that reviewers will not hesitate to point it out!!

[Zak33]

You have not explained the shift from a wider memory bus to a narrower one in both the G92 and RV670 from the G80 and R600. Look at the shift from the RV670 to the RV770. The HD4850 was much faster than the HD3870 but had less bandwidth too since the latter used faster GGDR4. In fact the 2900XT GDDR4 had a 512bit memory bus unlike the 256bit memory bus in the HD3870 GDDR4 and both were very similar in performance. Considering that the HD4830 with its lower clocked GDDR3 is faster than both the 2900XT GDDR4 and HD3870 GDDR4 is tantamount to the fact that memory bandwidth is not the most important factor in determining graphics card performance.

i'm glad you debate with such venom fella, it's why I asked everyone about their thoughts.
But comparing an old gpu which happened to have GDDR4 and 512bit memory bus with a modern 4830 isn't fair. I'm comparing 4830 and the next version of it, which are very close relatives, a few months apart in design. Hence my comparison of them, and my preference for the wider bus.

As to the 6800 GT and 7600 GT.. you brought them up, not me

What about the 7600GT and 6800GT? The latter had 128 bit memory access but was faster than the 256 bit memory access 6800GT in most games.

There is one GIANT flaw in your reasoning. Both the 6800GT and 7600GT used GDDR3. The 7600GT used 700mhz GDDR3(22.4 GB/s) whereas the 6800GT had 1000mhz GDDR3(32.0 GB/s) bandwidth. So the 6800GT had 50% more bandwidth anyway. TBH the 7600GT was faster in games for me so YMMV.

Either way, maybe a good combo would be a 260GTX on a 4830 pcb... but it doesn't exist. I wish ... oh HOW I wish, I could fit a 260 or similar into my case, but I can't. I had one, for a mate, tried it in my machine, and it wont fit.

That was way back last year when they were only £165. I'd have one now if it had fitted. It's taken all this time for those to come back down to the same price again.

So, in essence, what you're saying CAT is, that I should wait again... wait a bit longer, for the much vaunted 4750/4770 mode to arrive and be reviewed?

[kalniel]

42 ....why?

Because bandwidth is the same - whether you double the width of the bus, or double the 'width' of the signal carrier.

[Zak33]

You seem to keep graphics cards for some time, so go for a 1GB version. I'm sure at *some* point the texture storage requirement will overtake your card, they always do.

Wide memory vs high clocked memory? For a CPU the higher latency of narrower ram would matter, but in a graphics card with thousands of threads running at the same time I think the latency is well hidden and only bandwidth matters.

well argued, and I think that budget permitting, I will go with 1gig if it's availabe.

latency is the thing though. I stick with my guns on this one... it's low latency from a wide 256 bit bus, ON A LIKE FOR LIKE COMPARISON, I'll go with low latency, not ram bandwidth, and always with faster ram, and less of it if needed.