NVIDIA, MSI, and Lucid speak about Hydra delay

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I don't know what bleating is ...does not sound good though, but I try to be straight forward with my comments and views. Sometimes...I speak a bit too quickly...inserting foot-in-mouth occasionally - maybe even tweaking out a few people... But usually I stay out of trouble and focus on the issues.

NVIDIA in general does not ignore issues...hence I am here, now. Can't do this all the time :> but it seemed worth doing on this issue.

Bleating is the sound a Sheep or Goat makes when it calls out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLdv1kN--yw

[Biscuit]

Dont get me wrong i appreciate that you have come over and are at least speaking for the company in a proffessional manner (much better than having to put up with Fanbois such as Rollo) but i still feel you are avoiding relevant points and suggestions which have been made.

[NVIDIA_tap]

Dont get me wrong i appreciate that you have come over and are at least speaking for the company in a proffessional manner (much better than having to put up with Fanbois such as Rollo) but i still feel you are avoiding relevant points and suggestions which have been made.

Give me a list (short) of specific issues you think I am not considering. I will happily try to make our position and rationale clearer.

[Rollo]

Dont get me wrong i appreciate that you have come over and are at least speaking for the company in a proffessional manner (much better than having to put up with Fanbois such as Rollo) but i still feel you are avoiding relevant points and suggestions which have been made.

You've got to remember I'm not an employee of NVIDIA. I'm an enthusiast like yourself, stating my opinions on the issues. I'd note I'm doing it without calling anyone names, telling them to get off the board like some others. (ahem)

Do I like it that NVIDIA has orphaned people who thought they could buy their products for PhysX by removing it from the drivers? No, not especially. I'd be mad too if I wanted PhysX bought a card for it and had support yanked.

Do I understand why they'd want to limit the use of PhysX to their hardware? Yes- I wouldn't have let it work ever in the drivers if I were them, even if it works 100% the time and they would never have to QA it. This is the nature of business- you obtain a competitive advantage and exploit it to profit.

Do I understand why they'd like Lucid? Yes, because it opens new multi GPU markets to them and Lucid does the QA. It free marketing to them, and expands their potential client base. (as opposed to allowing PhysX on mixed configs which contracts their potential client base by allowing people who want PhysX to spend most of their money on an ATi card)

Whether you agree or disagree with my opinions, for the sake of forum harmony it would be nice if you could do so without acting like I came to your house, made love to your wife, shaved your kids head, cut the dog's tale off, and drank the bottle of old scotch you were saving for your retirement party.

We're just talking about video cards here, and presumably civilized men can do so without declaring blood feuds.

[Rollo]

It's no bug, the GTX295 is physically unable to run games properly at 2560x1600 with high AA, because it simply doesn't have enough memory.
Sadly, I'm starting to disagree more and more about Crysis being an outlier for performance, it has plenty of companions now.

Do you actually have a 25X16 monitor?

I do, and the fact I can't run 8X AA at 25X16 on some games doesn't really concern me for a couple reasons:
1. At 25X16, the need for AA is diminished by the resolution itself.
2. The difference in IQ between 4X MSAA and 8X MSAA is very difficult to see. It's a greatly diminishing returns scenario.
3. NVIDIA gives the user very nice CSAA modes. So while 8X CSAA is not quite as good as 8X MSAA, it's better than 4X MSAA and very usable at 25X16.

The few games a GTX295 has issues with at 25X16 8X MSAA are more than offset by the advantages of NVIDIA's vendor specific features and more flexible drivers IMHO. I'll give you they don't have EyeFinity, which would be nice if you're a flight sim or racing game fan.

[NVIDIA_tap]

Thought I would add our fun photo of the week here.
http://twitpic.com/pyhdf

First public shots of GF100 in action!

[shaithis]

Nevertheless, I know is not great to buy something for a purpose that it turns out is not supported. I mentioned earlier in this thread that we will continue to improve our security on this so if you are not ourtside of your return window I recommend you bring the PhysX GPU back. Hurts nme to tell you that but honestly I don't expect the community hack to work indefinitely.

I can take it that this means you are already actively working on making it unhackable in future?

That would be a great way to completely alienate a number of people forever......and the biggest problem for you is that the people you alienate are enthusiasts.....the people that generally get asked for recomendations by the not-so-tech-savy.

I am only one of many who will never recomend nvidia again after this mockery of a situation. I just wonder how you have managed to dodge an anti-trust lawsuit so far.

As for returning my card? It's not fauly, it's past my 30 days long distance cool-off period...I am stuck with it....and you are looking for a way to disable it permenantly.....could you do much more to turn a long time nvidia purchaser against you?

I am just releived that AMD are forging ahead now.

[Syllopsium]

I loved 8800 GTX as well. When it came out it was just so substantially better than anything that came before it. And 8800 GTX's success enabled us to reinvest in the next cycle of innovation. Today we see the product of that virtuous cycle:
- Build something compelling
- Bring it to market
- Make profit
- Reinvest to make the next big thing.

The reason we got to build PhysX, Stereo and even our next GPU is because of our prior successes and our focus on our core market - gaming, while simultaneously controlling and running an efficient business.

The decision to enable or disable PhysX is only revelevant because we have again created something our users value. NVIDIA could have done a better job communicating our policy on this on - no doubt. But accept that we need to run a business that generates profit to continue our cycle of innovation. We need to both control expenses and generate margin, and sometimes we need to make an unpopular decision to help the cycle and this is just one of those examples.
BTW, with a little work on your part I suspect you can find many examples of this. Have you ever noticed that many toyota parts don't fit on lexus? No good reason for that is there? How about the fact that Intel sells thier Atom CPU with a chipset for less than the price of Atom alone? What about MS just turning off the hacked xboxes? All of these are examples of companies making decision to protect thier businesses or IP.

Bottom line is there is nothing unethical or unusual about or decision on PhysX. And to put an even better point to it, There is nothing ususal or unethical about our decision on Lucid. We have no plans to QA it and I don't expect many people do.

There is plenty that is unethical and unusual about the PhysX situation.

The configuration was working and NVidia deliberately stopped it working.
It is the responsibility for driver writers to ensure their hardware and drivers co-exists with other drivers *even if that hardware is their direct competitor*.

NVidia's investment in new technologies is certainly admirable, and if they wish to lock those technologies to their own hardware that is their business decision. What is unacceptable is breaking a previously working configuration or disabling features in the presence of other hardware because Nvidia is facing more competition than it can currently handle and customers are buying lower end hardware to take advantage of NVidia only features.

If NVidia released its own computer system with its own operating system, it would be free to do what it wanted. NVidia neither controls all the hardware or OS, so should stop being childish and live up to its responsibilities in creating hardware that plays by the rules of the OS.

NVidia has lost trust, engaging in short termism at the expense of medium to long term success. Your admission indicates Nvidia is more than willing to break a system to serve its own ends - what next, interfering with my soundcard or SCSI card?

Congratulations. You've managed to turn me from an NVidia fan (up until now, I have perceived NVidia as providing a more solid solution) into someone who will definitely be buying and recommending an ATI card solution, just as soon as they sort their driver issues out.

If NVidia admit they were wrong and re-enable PhysX support (and not as a buried away 'unsupported' option) and show no signs of engaging in such behaviour again I'll re-consider my position. Until then, I will continue to apply a high level of distrust to anything NVidia says.

PK

[shaithis]

You've got to remember I'm not an employee of NVIDIA. I'm an enthusiast like yourself, stating my opinions on the issues. I'd note I'm doing it without calling anyone names, telling them to get off the board like some others. (ahem)

Perhaps you don't get it.....but it's the **** talking people around here do not like.

You spouted more propganda on these boards in the last week than I have seen on them in the 5.5 years I have been a member.

We like impartiality, not blatent fanboyism which is bordering on blind obsession.

[Rollo]

Perhaps you don't get it.....but it's the **** talking people around here do not like.

You spouted more propganda on these boards in the last week than I have seen on them in the 5.5 years I have been a member.

We like impartiality, not blatent fanboyism which is bordering on blind obsession.

Got some quotes of this "blatent fanboyism" or "**** talking", so I know what you're talking about?

Shouldn't be hard as it eclipses "5 years of all m embers" in "one week"- please elaborate.

[shaithis]

Just go back and read your posts again......I do not want to.

I am sure you will find a way to respond to my post with yet another "why should nvidia qa for AMD" post, which seems to be a defacto response regardless of the question posed......along with telling us how your 295 is the best thing on the face of the planet and how AMD are out to try and take our first born children.

[ajones]

Got some quotes of this "blatent fanboyism" or "**** talking", so I know what you're talking about?

Shouldn't be hard as it eclipses "5 years of all m embers" in "one week"- please elaborate.

Oh come on Rollo..... now you're asking for trouble! Your post count for one has risen 50% since we all started debating ATi/nVidia/BatmanAA etc etc etc. Whilst that in itself means nothing, there is a certain theme for all to see!

Question for you. What is the fastest enthusiast graphics card around at the moment?

[Rollo]

Just go back and read your posts again......I do not want to.

I am sure you will find a way to respond to my post with yet another "why should nvidia qa for AMD" post, which seems to be a defacto response regardless of the question posed......along with telling us how your 295 is the best thing on the face of the planet and how AMD are out to try and take our first born children.

Excuse me? You going to call people names, level accusations, then can't be bothered to back it up?

Where I was going with that is it seems to me people like you call other people names, level charges of "bias" and "fanboyism" when someone merely disagrees with your position.\

I think it's a juvenile and counterproductive tactic on your part.

Don't like it that I say my GT295 is great?

Want me to post links to about 100 reviews that say it's the best single slot card of last gen?

Want me to post links to a few dozen reviews that say it's faster than the HD5870?

Want me to post links to a thread on Rage3d (the ATi fansite) where a bunch of the members are talking about 3d Vision like it's the only thing that matters? Or a couple dozen reviews that say it's the best way to do what it does, and very cool when it works?

Want me to post links to dozens of reviews that say PhysX effects are a very nice addition to the games that have them?

Point being, I'm happy enough to back up what I say, and having different preferences than you doesn't make either of us wrong, biased, or a fanboy.

[sammorris]

"Do you actually have a 25X16 monitor?"
I guess you were too lazy to click 'sammorris' system' on the left hand side.... pathetic.
"The few games a GTX295 has issues with at 25X16 8X MSAA" - i.e. almost all of them then.... :S Oh, and by the way, it also applies to 4x MSAA.
"NVIDIA gives the user very nice CSAA modes" - And ATI doesn't?

"Want me to post links to a few dozen reviews that say it's faster than the HD5870?" - Yes please, because it's not the case, you'll struggle to find six from anywhere except nvidia-biased sites like toms hardware.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

In other news the HD5970 beats the GTX295 using early drivers and also has DX11:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3679&p=1

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...on-review.html

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1141/1/

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon...-review-test/1

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid...e=expert&pid=1

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/EAH5970/11.html

In other,other news three months later(or maybe later?) Fermi ends up faster(or not) when compared to an HD5970.

In other,other,other news ATI release the HD5990 which is faster(or not) than Fermi.

In other news a Fermi dual GPU card is faster(or not) than the HD5990.

Repeat this for the next few years.

Just because you have bought the fastest graphics card today does not mean it will be so tomorrow. Also faster means nothing if both an HD4870X2 and GTX295 BOTH struggle with a game like Crysis which is two years old at maximum settings. The whole point of buying the fastest card is to run games at the highest settings possible.

[sammorris]

The HD5970 doesn't just beat a GTX295, it destroys it, 39-64% in Far Cry 2, 27% (outside CPU-limited tests) in Quake Wars, 20% in COD6 and a whopping 61% in Crysis just to start with. (On top of that, the 5970 actually matches two GTX295s in Q-SLI in Crysis).
Now add all the games the 295 doesn't run at 2560x1600 due to the memory performance, it's obvious.
I'd be very surprised if the Fermi single GPU card has anything on the HD5970, though I do expect it to outrank the HD5870.