NVIDIA, MSI, and Lucid speak about Hydra delay

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

A person who buys a GTX285 now is an idiot. The HD5850 is cheaper in the UK and offers better performance too:

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/...eo_card_review

Things maybe different in the US though. I would rather get a GTX275 and save the money TBH if was getting an Nvidia card.It has most of the performance of a GTX285 for a massively lower price. OTH,an HD4890 has most of the speed of a GTX275 for a much lower price:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==

3D Vision is pointless for 99.99% of all gamers as it needs special hardware which is not cheap. How many people will be spending £100 for the glasses or will spend hundreds of quid on a new monitor?? This is the real world not the cloud cuckoo land which many hardware enthusiasts inhabit. Most PC gamers are not enthusiasts.

CUDA is pointless for gamers too. I definitely see its advantages though for non gaming use and if anything has made ATI get of its backside and also try to offer similar functionality in its cards too. However gamers only care about GAMING performance so CUDA is a non entity here.

I have never met anyone who is a gamer who buys a graphics card for GPGPU functionality yet. Again they are looking for the fastest framerates for the money they have paid in the games they play.


PhysX only has limited appeal but then MOST people prefer better visuals to physics especially in FPS and other similar types of first person perspective games. Most people want their graphics to be concentrating on the actual visuals as you have a CPU to do other work. If your GPU is fudding around with things the CPU should be doing you are not going to be getting the maximum visual benefit in games are you??

I want my FPS games to look as close to real life as possible. Physics won't bother me so much until graphics improve and the latter has a fair way to go still. A game like Crysis had a good enough level of physics and it does not particularly tax the CPU massively either AFAIK. Most people who watch modern action films tend to be more awed with great visuals then realistic physics. The fact that most action films have non realistic physics underlies this point and Joe and Jane public seem to not care as these movies tend to do very well despite their unbelievable plots. John McClain taking out a helicopter with a car?? Cars jumping through the air and not wrecking the suspension?? Everything exploding even if the Hero breathes on it??

Happens all the time in real life doesn't it??

Considering that most CPUs are criminally underused during games the need for PhysX is very limited at the moment. Eyefinity is also of not much use since most people own only one monitor.

Every single gamer I know only cares for the actual gaming performance in the games they like and do not give two hoots about propriety features.

DX11 on the other hand is useful(if not a currently essential feature) as more and more games will be using it. It is an industry standard. Of course even use of DX11 is dependent if the DX11 features can be actually activated on first generation DX11 cards without making a game run at a very slow rate. This is the reason DX10 was not so successful and DX9 is still in wide use even to this day.

If DX11 was not important Fermi would not be DX11 and the same goes for DX10.1!! Nvidia said a while back they thought DX10.1 was of no real use but it is quite funny that their latest parts are DX10.1 compliant.

[shaithis]

In the two years between the 8800GTX and the 4870 ATi was competing at any level, the 2900s and 3800s were pretty bad.

And what did nVidia do for 2 years+?

That's right, they sat back with their lead, charging top dollar for their cards and releasing the same card over and over under slightly different names......until AMD got on their feet as a GPU manufacturer and caused the price of cards to almost half overnight.

We ALL know the 8800GTX was the king for a long time, hell, I even still run mine in my second PC - I haven't had a GPU last that long since the MDA card in the first PC I ever used as a kid!

This thread is not about who has the fastest card (no matter how far OT it has gone), it's about Hydra primarily and by extension of that.....business practices......an area that nvidia are currently on VERY thin ice.

[shaffaaf27]

It's not "quite" the same.

In the two years between the 8800GTX and the 4870 ATi was competing at any level, the 2900s and 3800s were pretty bad. They weren't talking about 8X AA back then, they were talking about how we didn't really need 4X AA because those two generations couldn't even run AA at all without a huge hit. Coupled with lower performance across the board, it was lean times for ATi.

The NVIDIA products are still selling well for a couple reasons:
1. They offer some things ATi cards don't (PhysX, 3d Vision, CUDA) but don't have EyeFinity or DX11- so people are choosing which means more to them on parts that largely perform the same.
2. In the states at least, it's very hard to buy a 5XXX part. Vendors get a couple here and there, they sell out instantly.

If you're a kid who gets a GTX285 for Christmas instead of a 5850, what will the difference to you be? Basically the DX11 games that come out will run a little slower, but probably still more than fast enough. You'll be able to see the PhysX effects in games as an offset to that.

The only market ATi has sewn up now is the 5970 tromps everything.

if a kid gets a last gen GPUp for xmas they wont be happy at all. high power usage, esp at idle, lack of DX11, or even lack of DX10.1 the fact that he should have gotten a GTX275 instead, and anyways fro physics you need another card, do you not?

the only reason, IMO that he last gen series, that nvidia continued to sell is due to one reason, MARKETING!

nvidia easily destory ATI when it comes to marketing, and having the greatest mindshare means alot! yes ATI couldnt do AA and yes, lets face facts, they got raped in the GPU department for 2 years, and rightfully so, but now we are looking to the future, and its been a year and a half nearly, since the 4 sereis came in play and won the round, and ATM this gen they are winning, if by default. when fermi comes that'll change things, for better or worse we dont know, but bar us poor sods who have nothing better to do than back up our products, not many people know or could give a crap about 3d/physics. they jsut want to play the games, and might look to see in their price bracket what card can actually play MW2, WOW etc etc.

[sammorris]

Cat speaks the truth. The HD5850 slaughters the GTX285, substantially faster (of the order of magnitude of GTX285 vs GTX260, if not more), more efficient, DX11, and so on. To be quite frank, the stock issues are quite overplayed, it just means you wait longer for delivery. Most shops allow out-of-stock pre-orders now, so you simply put your order in, roughly 2 weeks later, one turns up. This is why the stock is always out, everybody pre-orders.
The GTX275 and GTX285 aren't far apart for performance, and the GTX275 is cheaper BUT the HD4890 will take on the GTX275 and match it or beat it, plus it has DX10.1 over the GTX275, and costs a LOT less.
I agree with CAT about 3D Vision, it costs about the same to get 3D Vision for a 22" monitor as it does to not have it and use a 30" monitor instead. I have still yet to see a 3D vision capable 30" monitor.
CUDA is nVidia's way of getting into the GPU-as-a-CPU business. It works, and works well, but it has nothing to do with games. I don't get why nvidia keep pushing it alongside games functionality as if they are comparable.
PhysX is the only thing nvidia offer over ATI for games, apart from obviously the TWIMTBP titles, and it is pretty neat, but for the moment it isn't sufficient to warrant buying an outdated nvidia GPU for over an ATI DX11 part, when you can simply hack the PhysX disable out of the drivers and run a tacky-old 8400GS or something in Slot 2 for PhysX.
That's another good point Cat raises, PhysX does nothing the CPU could not, it is just coded in such a way to make you think you need GPU physics to get those effects. The CPU-based code for PhysX is coded as badly as possible to force you into buying a GPU or living with it off. On a Core i7 with HT enabled, PhysX will use around 3-4% CPU usage. No wonder games run so slowly with it on the CPU.
Let's be clear, DirectX11 doesn't amaze me in the slightest on its own. Tesselation, however, that's a whole different story. Tesselation in my mind, is the biggest news in the graphics market since HDR. I am very impressed with what I've seen so far.
I wouldn't say much about nvidia's DX10.1 parts, the fastest is what, the GT240? Last I checked the GT240 couldn't even compete with the HD4670, which is slower than ATI's "abysmal" HD3870.
There is only one thing that makes me want an nVidia GPU right now, which is TWIMTBP.
It is getting to the stage where some games are literally unplayable on any ATI graphics hardware. Here's hoping this doesn't continue much further. If nvidia don't pull their finger out with Fermi, it probably won't, since developers will realise ATI offer more to gamers (at long last).

[Rollo]

if a kid gets a last gen GPUp for xmas they wont be happy at all. high power usage, esp at idle, lack of DX11, or even lack of DX10.1 the fact that he should have gotten a GTX275 instead, and anyways fro physics you need another card, do you not?

the only reason, IMO that he last gen series, that nvidia continued to sell is due to one reason, MARKETING!

nvidia easily destory ATI when it comes to marketing, and having the greatest mindshare means alot! yes ATI couldnt do AA and yes, lets face facts, they got raped in the GPU department for 2 years, and rightfully so, but now we are looking to the future, and its been a year and a half nearly, since the 4 sereis came in play and won the round, and ATM this gen they are winning, if by default. when fermi comes that'll change things, for better or worse we dont know, but bar us poor sods who have nothing better to do than back up our products, not many people know or could give a crap about 3d/physics. they jsut want to play the games, and might look to see in their price bracket what card can actually play MW2, WOW etc etc.

Power consumption- since when do kids care about power consumption? I don't make mine pay the bill, but in any case, you're mistaken about NVIDIA power consumption.

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/17652/9

I don't think the 12W difference at idle, or the 58W difference at load will break anyone's bank. Power is really cheap in the US anyway.

So what are these differences in DX10 vs DX10.1 and DX11 you think our hypothetical kid will be missing out on? Can you elaborate? The reason I ask is that I've seen some DX10.1 games run a little faster, and I've seen the two existing DX11 games run a little faster than in DX10, but if our kid is like 99% of the world and sporting a 19X12 or lower resolution, I don't think there will be many instances where that 10-20% speed boost I'v seen the newer DXs give will matter much. And of course the games where the boost occurs are as few and far between as PhysX games.

I pretty much doubt if we gave our kid the ATi 5850, then snuck into his room and swapped it out for a GTX285 (or 275) he'd even know the difference or ever notice.

[sammorris]

You're calling 58W no difference? That's almost the difference between having a graphics card and having integrated graphics in a lot of systems. 58W at load for 4 hours a day for a year is 80 units, which IIRC is about 20 dollars.

[Rollo]

You're calling 58W no difference? That's almost the difference between having a graphics card and having integrated graphics in a lot of systems. 58W at load for 4 hours a day for a year is 80 units, which IIRC is about 20 dollars.

$20 a year is "no difference" to me-$20 is change?.

[sammorris]

That's per person, per year, assuming load of 4 hours per day. Serious gamers will average more than that. Let's not also forget that that's all that increase in power for substantially less performance.

[shaffaaf27]

rollo, i guess we know different kids then. in your case, the kid clearly doesnt know GPUs to begin with, and hell be happy with a 1GB GPU would be happy to upgrade his 256mb, even if the 256 was a 7900 GDDR3, and its upgraded to a 9400 1GB DDR2.

now the kids i know, and if i was giving them a GPU, well firstly to warrent them a GPU they would know what they wanted and appreciate it, so if i was, id get bang for the buck.

you think a parent geting their child a GPU would knwo the difference between AGP and PCIE, let alone WTF physx/3d gaming is. the most they woudl spend is like £50 maybe stretch to £100 and that would be from PC world where last years GPU are sold and they are all very over priced.

[sammorris]

The sort of kid who receives an HD4650 for christmas doesn't care less.
The sort of kid who receives an HD5850 for christmas almost certainly DOES.
I'll be honest, what parent buys a child a graphics card for christmas anyway? I don't know this for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of kids interested in PC hardware upgrades would want the parents to give them the money and for them to do the buying to make sure they got the right thing, or alternatively get their parents to pay for an online order using their credit card. That's sure as hell what I did. The irony is, I still got it wrong once, and accidentally ordered a PCIe card instead of the AGP one that fit my system. In my defense, the site (savastore.com , now saverstore.com after a previous bankruptcy) didn't actually state AT ALL what interface their graphics cards were for.

[Rollo]

The sort of kid who receives an HD4650 for christmas doesn't care less.
The sort of kid who receives an HD5850 for christmas almost certainly DOES.
I'll be honest, what parent buys a child a graphics card for christmas anyway? I don't know this for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of kids interested in PC hardware upgrades would want the parents to give them the money and for them to do the buying to make sure they got the right thing, or alternatively get their parents to pay for an online order using their credit card. That's sure as hell what I did. The irony is, I still got it wrong once, and accidentally ordered a PCIe card instead of the AGP one that fit my system. In my defense, the site (savastore.com , now saverstore.com after a previous bankruptcy) didn't actually state AT ALL what interface their graphics cards were for.

Like most people in online forums, you fall into the trap of the proverbial "right card to buy".

Is the 5850 the right card for DX11, Eye Finity, and costs a little less? Sure.

Is the GTX285 the right card for PhysX, 3d Vison, CUDA, avilability, and costs a little more? Sure.

Because you value DX11, EyeFinity, and saving $50 doesn't make it the "right" choice for every one.

Because I value 3d Vision and PhysX and could care less about $50 doesn't make the GTX285 the "right" choice for every one.

Will there be more DX11 games coming out that will run faster on the 5850? Sure. Will there be more PhysX games coming out that will look a lot better on the GTX 285? Sure.

There's no right or wrong answer- only preferences. Like I said, for anyone with a 19X12 and under monitor, they probably wouldn't know the difference in performance.

What kind of parent buys their kid a video card as a gift? Gee, I don't know- parent who loves his/her kid, wants to surprise them with the video card they've been talking about. Not like it's a bottle of booze or deck of smokes- a video card makes a great gift.

[sammorris]

It's a personal decision. However, I would say 95% of the market, if not more, would care about the advantages the 5850 offers, not what the GTX285 offers. Availability doesn't count as the GTX285 is as poorly available as the HD5850. The rest is pretty much useless to almost anyone except those who prefer the technologies simply because it's nvidia that's offering them, and not on their own merits.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

At least in the UK most gamers will not being buying graphics cards over £150 anyway. Most gamers even would find over a £100 a lot of money to be spending on a graphics card. This is why the midrange cards will be important for BOTH ATI and Nvidia. Go to most computer chains like PCWorld and smaller PC shops and you will rarely find cards over the £150 to £200 mark on the shelf unless you order one in. Some enthusiast shops will have more expensive parts but these are not as common.

In the UK at least the GTX260(around £120 upwards),HD4870 512MB(around £90 upwards),HD4870 1GB(around £107 upwards),HD4770(£58 upwards) and HD4890 1GB(around £130 upwards) are retailing at relatively low prices. The 9800GT(around £65 upwards),GTS250(around £75 upwards) and HD4850(around £75 upwards) and GTX275(around £160 upwards) have relatively poor performance for the price.
On top of this ATI have HD5750 512MB,HD5750 1GB and HD5770 1GB for under £125 and no doubt as the initial new tech surcharge disappears these too should start dropping in price.

The average person would also feel short changed if these cards were to last less than two years for gaming purposes.

Enthusiasts tend to forget that they are not representative of most of the market.

[sammorris]

Indeed, and what do gamers have to buy for £150 these days? An HD4890 or a GTX260. Now I wonder which is the better of those choices... :S
nVidia really have some work to do in making their midrange stuff better value for money. The GT210/220/240 are dismal, the GTS250 is way outclassed by similarly-priced offerings, and the GTX275, if you can still find one, is hugely overpriced.
I disagree that the HD4850 for £75 is poor performance for the price. It's amazing performance for the price, it's just not at all power-efficient. It's still DX10.1, and very rapid for £75. The HD5770 is much more efficient, and costs about £10 more. The HD5750 is more efficient again, and adds the HD5 series features, for an additional £10-£15 on top of the 4770's price. The HD5750 is the least good value for performance in the chain really. The GTS250 sits somewhere between the HD4770 and HD5750, but offering none of the bonuses.

[Rollo]

It's a personal decision. However, I would say 95% of the market, if not more, would care about the advantages the 5850 offers, not what the GTX285 offers. Availability doesn't count as the GTX285 is as poorly available as the HD5850. The rest is pretty much useless to almost anyone except those who prefer the technologies simply because it's nvidia that's offering them, and not on their own merits.

The GTX285 (and 275 for that matter) are easily obtainable, basically only 5850s/5870s/5970s are nowhere to be found. (which is not due to ATi, apparently TSMC is still having 40nm troubles)

I will say this- the last gen ATi parts seem to have gone down in price, but it looks to me like NVIDIA parts are going up in price. I bet demand has gone up for them as it's the holiday season, and even more so because people can't buy a 5XXX. If this keeps up, should be good for reducing inventories on all last gen cards.

[sammorris]

TSMC have at least found the fault with the low 40nm yields, and set a date of 6th Dec for fixing it, though by the time that filters down into retail, it'll be late January before we see lots of 40nm silicon.
Maybe the demand for nvidia cards did go up, but if the ATI part prices are going down, add the fact that there are plentifully-stocked new DX11 versions of the old GPUs with low footprints, I really don't see nvidia getting that many sales over the christmas period. The GTX275 and GTX285 are still massively overpriced, and the GTX260/GTS250 have the HD5700 series to compete with.

You still make it sound like buying an HD5800 series card is impossible, which is not the case at all. You just have to get past the out of stock mentality and realise what the word 'pre-order' means.