Analysis - Windows and Linux battle for the soul of the netbook

[Flibb]

Out of the few people I know with netbooks (myself included) we all run xp (I dual boot OSX), mainly due to certain apps being os dependant. main ones for me are memorymap navigator, and sierra infinity. But the others all use their netbooks (large HDs) as portable photo storage, and shock horror some quick editing and uploading. Its far easier to have a common app running on desktop and netbook for this task. Other apps installed
Office 2007
Eve
Eve mon
Opera

From my experience the 10" screened Xp netbppks are being used as laptops, they are capable of doing most home tasks. Another plus point for running XP is the ease of sharing optical drives + printers across a home network.

[nichomach]

£100 of office on a £200 computer seems mad to me. Perhaps i'm just odd. Ditto the prices to add Windows after the event (i.e. not the discounted OEM netbook prices)

Not sure that actually works as an argument; with the collapsing price of hardware, would you also consider it mad to spend £100 putting Office on a basic 15.4" Pentium dual-core or Celeron laptop which might only cost £299? What about £120-£150 if it's for business use? 'Cause that's what it'd cost to convert your Office-Ready PC with a medialess license kit. In every market segment, software's becoming an increasingly large percentage of the cost of a new machine. That's just business use.

Now consider the following; you are a home user. You have a desktop machine and have bought Office Home & Student for it. You paid about £100, but you're OK with that because you really want Word and Excel, not just "compatible" apps from OOo or whoever. You decide you want one of these new-fangled netbooks, and you want to run Office on it. How much does it cost you? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Because your H&S version of office is licensed for up to 3 machines. Starts looking a bit better now, doesn't it?

[directhex]

Not sure that actually works as an argument; with the collapsing price of hardware, would you also consider it mad to spend £100 putting Office on a basic 15.4" Pentium dual-core or Celeron laptop which might only cost £299? What about £120-£150 if it's for business use?

Is a class of computer which saw major distribution in Toys 'R' Us a "business" machine?

I suspect my conceptual problem here is that I don't see a netbook as a device trying to be a laptop - as you point out, there are laptops available for similar prices.

[dangel]

£100 of office on a £200 computer seems mad to me. Perhaps i'm just odd. Ditto the prices to add Windows after the event (i.e. not the discounted OEM netbook prices)

Well it doesn't run to that - but then people will pay and those that don't can choose open office I suppose. But still, it's not just about office now is it?

As I said, the Eee's OS is crappy. Not news. What's interesting is the FAR more polished affairs from the likes of Dell & HP which have evolved after only a few months

Which is great - and needs to happen if linux is going to have any chance whatsoever of using netbooks as a market penetration tool.

But in either case, they're not going to compete at *being Windows*. You're not going to get a Linux system which is better at running MS Office and MSN Messenger and MS this and MS that. That's dense. You MIGHT, however (well, can) get a better overall device. Certainly in terms of out-of-box experience. My one experience with a Windows netbook was... well, I'd pick the default Acer OS for preference.

Yes but, not to point out the blitheringly obvious.. you're a linux head I'm not, and i choose 7/XP over the Acer linux. Drop your tech level enough (i.e. to the masses who are buying these things) and Windows *is* just more appealing (wrong or right) because they've *used it* before. When things go wrong they can probably get some help easily (from their 12 year old son no doubt) etc etc. I'm not arguing that linux is bad, more than it's not really any better anymore - and therein lies the problem; how do you sell it (the idea of it) in a world where MS are actually getting things right more often than not AND the users are comfortable (more often than not) in a Windows eco-system?

[dangel]

Is a class of computer which saw major distribution in Toys 'R' Us a "business" machine?

I suspect my conceptual problem here is that I don't see a netbook as a device trying to be a laptop - as you point out, there are laptops available for similar prices.

People love them because they're tiny, handbag sized (really I know more than one woman who pops her Acer in her handbag) and capable of pretty much anything they really want to do with a laptop - facebook, IM, bit of office work etc. Most users only want basic office functionality - those who use the more exotic apps like photoshop or maya (to quote you) aren't really in this sort of market. I suspect the vast majority of netbooks are bought for personal use - but I do use my for business (because I don't have to carry a multi-kilo back killer that way) although only really for powerpoint etc. VS does work on it too though..

[nichomach]

Is a class of computer which saw major distribution in Toys 'R' Us a "business" machine?

Given that we're talking about a class of machine that includes:
http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/...roductId=34898
http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/...roductId=34900

and others of similar ilk that ship with Vista Business/XP Pro Downgrade as standard, yes it is; note, I'm not saying that these make sense in an enterprise environment, or that they are stellar performers, far from it, but they are indubitably targeted as business machines for the more price-sensitive end of the SME market.

I suspect my conceptual problem here is that I don't see a netbook as a device trying to be a laptop - as you point out, there are laptops available for similar prices.

I don't see it as a laptop for people for whom their laptop would be their main machine, but as I've noted, if you already are a home user with a machine with Office 2007 H&S, bunging Office on your shiny new Aspire One or if you're feeling flush NC10 (I'm not counting the more upmarket machines like the S101 or N10J) is free, and if you're a business type, it's still not ruinous - bear in mind that you can have OEM pricing even as a business, and even if the machine doesn't ship as an "Office-Ready" model, so long as you buy Office to go on a full system.

[directhex]

Yes but, not to point out the blitheringly obvious.. you're a linux head

With 14+ years' Windows experience.

I'm not, and i choose 7/XP over the Acer linux. Drop your tech level enough (i.e. to the masses who are buying these things) and Windows *is* just more appealing (wrong or right) because they've *used it* before. When things go wrong they can probably get some help easily (from their 12 year old son no doubt) etc etc. I'm not arguing that linux is bad, more than it's not really any better anymore - and therein lies the problem; how do you sell it (the idea of it) in a world where MS are actually getting things right more often than not AND the users are comfortable (more often than not) in a Windows eco-system?

Therein lies the vicious circle. If no matter how good you get, people will still opt for the **** they're used to, then there's no way to improve. If people would turn down a Ferrari because they're used to their Nova thank you very much, then what are the real options?

Take a look at things like HP's Ubuntu GUI (http://www.downloadsquad.com/photos/hp-mini-mi-edition/), Dell's Ubuntu GUI (http://www.engadget.com/photos/canon...l-at-computex/) or several alternatives built around *doing things easily*, and convince me that an XP desktop is better suited to the medium

[directhex]

Given that we're talking about a class of machine that includes:
http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/...roductId=34898
http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/...roductId=34900

and others of similar ilk that ship with Vista Business/XP Pro Downgrade as standard, yes it is; note, I'm not saying that these make sense in an enterprise environment, or that they are stellar performers, far from it, but they are indubitably targeted as business machines for the more price-sensitive end of the SME market.

Those are laptops. The 15" screen gives it away. I'm talking about netbooks.

I don't see it as a laptop for people for whom their laptop would be their main machine, but as I've noted, if you already are a home user with a machine with Office 2007 H&S, bunging Office on your shiny new Aspire One or if you're feeling flush NC10 (I'm not counting the more upmarket machines like the S101 or N10J) is free, and if you're a business type, it's still not ruinous - bear in mind that you can have OEM pricing even as a business, and even if the machine doesn't ship as an "Office-Ready" model, so long as you buy Office to go on a full system.

Which is fair enough. I'd forgotten about the 3-license thing.

[dangel]

With 14+ years' Windows experience.

And? (I thought you are a twenty something anyway?)

Therein lies the vicious circle. If no matter how good you get, people will still opt for the **** they're used to, then there's no way to improve. If people would turn down a Ferrari because they're used to their Nova thank you very much, then what are the real options?

Problem is, when it comes down to linux versus windows that analogy is way off base - of course i'd have a ferrari versus a nove - the gap is gigantic - not so with OS' thesedays (which is really what i've been saying all along - why linux?).

Take a look at things like HP's Ubuntu GUI (http://www.downloadsquad.com/photos/hp-mini-mi-edition/), Dell's Ubuntu GUI (http://www.engadget.com/photos/canon...l-at-computex/) or several alternatives built around *doing things easily*, and convince me that an XP desktop is better suited to the medium

Oh i've seen then - pretty they are too - but it's not you or I that need convincing sadly. As I said, I hope linux does well - even if I don't want to use it I still want it there snapping at MS' heels (in the distance) to keep them frosty.

[directhex]

And? (I thought you are a twenty something anyway?)

Start 'em young

Problem is, when it comes down to linux versus windows that analogy is way off base - of course i'd have a ferrari versus a nove - the gap is gigantic - not so with OS' thesedays (which is really what i've been saying all along - why linux?).

All comes down to workflow, really. Modern netbook Linuxes ARE nicer than Windows, barring the "runs my Windows apps" part. How much nicer? Ferrari-to-Nova nicer? VW-to-Audi? Chocolate-Fudge-Brownie-to-Cookie-Dough?

Oh i've seen then - pretty they are too - but it's not you or I that need convincing sadly. As I said, I hope linux does well - even if I don't want to use it I still want it there snapping at MS' heels (in the distance) to keep them frosty.

Well, quite. Think Office could be bought for under £300 if not for OOo? Think there'd be an IE past IE6 if not for Firefox?

[nichomach]

Those are laptops. The 15" screen gives it away. I'm talking about netbooks.

I said:

...would you also consider it mad to spend £100 putting Office on a basic 15.4" Pentium dual-core or Celeron laptop which might only cost £299? What about £120-£150 if it's for business use?

You said:

Is a class of computer which saw major distribution in Toys 'R' Us a "business" machine?

And I responded by listing examples of business-oriented laptops (by virtue of the Vista Business/XP Pro OS supplied) in that price range and class to indicate that they were classed as business machines and were sold and intended to be used as such. I'm very well aware that they are laptops, my very point was that they were laptops not that far removed in price (if at all) from the netbooks under discussion, and that the hardware cost argument lacked merit for that reason. Was there really any call for the sarcastic response?

edit: We may be talking at cross-purposes; I assumed that you were referring to the £300 laptops as being unsuitable to be described as business machines - I've seen Toys'R'Us punt quite a lot of those, especially brands like Medion. You may have been referring to netbooks with that comment, since Toys'R'Us have also sold those. I think the presence of both types of machine in their stores renders the point moot, though.

[dangel]

Start 'em young

?

All comes down to workflow, really. Modern netbook Linuxes ARE nicer than Windows, barring the "runs my Windows apps" part. How much nicer? Ferrari-to-Nova nicer? VW-to-Audi? Chocolate-Fudge-Brownie-to-Cookie-Dough?

Really you're just being silly now - you're welcome to your opinion of course but you're coming off rather childish now rather than adding anything useful to the debate.

[adder]

You two gona have to agree to disagree.

I guess it depends what you know, and how much you can do. I was even thinking of buying one of these small acers to run a server, and Linux would have no problem doing that.

There might be some restrictions if your new, but if hardware manufacturers can adapt Linux more, and looks like they may have started, things will get really good.