News - First screenshots featuring the Windows 8.1 Start Button emerge

[J3FFW1SH]

Good, now the hates can shut up about missing a start button! I never understood the hate about the removal of the start button especially when if you go bottom left and click its the exact same thing!.

*cries with laughter* SOOO true...

[crossy]

Yes I can understand that many non computer literate people find the change difficult, but I find it less easy to understand why so many power users are having the same difficulties adapting.

I'll go further - I find a direct correlation between "experience" and the degree of Eight-Hate. I can only assume that this is because those folks have been "trained" to expect their GUI's to perform in one manner - mainly by Microsoft! (Windows 3.1, 95, 97, 2000, XP, 7). In which case the sudden switch to an incompletely implemented alien way of working is unconfortable. Then - as many have said here - there's the cherry on the top of MUI's stubborn mono-fenestrated nature - ffs computers multitask; people multitask; but the "geniuses" at Redmond have decided that one-task-fits-all.

Why did I say "incompletely implemented"? ... because you've still got that old/classic paradigm of the desktop lurking around to remind you what you used to have. I'll repeat myself ... I would hate MUI less if they'd dropped the "classic" desktop altogether.

In the pro-MUI camp there also seems to be an assumption that the "grumpies" (like me) are bemoaning the lack of a start button. This is unfair. Heck, the only time I use Start button these days it to get to my pinned apps, so MUI - with it's live tiles - might actually be an improvement. No, instead I like my Windows Key+typing combo as being the fastest, most efficient way to get to the apps that I need. And that's still there in 8, but with the added twist that it's a 50/50 split whether you get app search or that "classic" desktop - which does get annoying. The upside of the return of the Start button is that at least folks who hate MUI have got more time to relearn.

My wish list for MUI mk 2 would be: multi windows; more control over the tiles; remove the classic desktop completely and replace with a tile. Oh, and move the shutdown option to a more accessible place! Do those in Windows 9 and I'll switch in a heartbeat - heck, I'll put in a pre-order NOW!

[aidanjt]

And the regular start menu doesn't? If you used eye tracking equipment I doubt you would see people using the start menu while still looking at the rest of the screen. I'm pretty certain I don't do that.

Humans, like most animals, have peripheral vision. A menu, unlike a full screen, doesn't come with a major context switch.

If it isn't a frequently used program it takes longer to find on the start menu.

Why would it? Type what you're looking for, done. And if it isn't frequently used then it doesn't really matter if it takes longer, does it? And if it does, like I said before, everyone's free to reorganise their start menu's directory structure, as well as increasing the number of pinned or floating jumplist items. The important element here is choice. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

If it is a frequently used program I probably have it pinned to my start bar anyway.

You're assuming that all of everyone's frequently used programmes would fit in the taskbar.

I'm not sure what you mean by "browse"?

Survey objects casually, esp. goods for sale
- he stopped to browse around a sporting goods store

Scan through a book or magazine superficially to gain an impression of the contents
- she browsed through the newspaper
- patrons can browse the shelves of the library

Read or survey (data files), typically via a network

(of an animal) Feed on leaves, twigs, or other high-growing vegetation
- they reach upward to browse on bushes
- the animals browse the high foliage of trees

Clearer now? This is fairly rudimentary IT terminology. :/

[Willzzz]

Oh, and move the shutdown option to a more accessible place! Do those in Windows 9 and I'll switch in a heartbeat - heck, I'll put in a pre-order NOW!

There are so many ways to shutdown Win8 already, pick the one you prefer:

Win + I to open settings
Alt F4 on the desktop (Win + D to get to desktop if necessary)
Create a shortcut and put it wherever.

[aidanjt]

Yes I can understand that many non computer literate people find the change difficult, but I find it less easy to understand why so many power users are having the same difficulties adapting.

Because you don't understand that square peg != round hole.

[Willzzz]

Humans, like most animals, have peripheral vision. A menu, unlike a full screen, doesn't come with a major context switch.

Human peripheral vision is mainly concerned with movement, danger, I'm not sure what the relevance is here and what would cause you to suddenly abort launching a program.

Why would it? Type what you're looking for, done. And if it isn't frequently used then it doesn't really matter if it takes longer, does it? And if it does, like I said before, everyone's free to reorganise their start menu's directory structure, as well as increasing the number of pinned or floating jumplist items. The important element here is choice. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

The more buttons you have to press the longer it takes, to launch a program from Win8 Start Screen takes 2 simple clicks.
If it isn't frequently used why is such a hardship to switch to MUI for one second?

You're assuming that all of everyone's frequently used programmes would fit in the taskbar.

Sure, there may be a few rare examples where people have 20+ frequently used programs, but for the 99% then yes I am assuming that.

If you don't want browse, don't. You were never forced to browse since Vista.

I mean 'browse' as in the context you used it here, I obviously know the dictionary definition.
You obviously mean 'browse' to be something specific, you talk about 'browse' as if it were a feature of the OS?

[Saracen]

I take it the "full-screen aspects" is referring to apps, if you don't like apps don't run them, don't download them. I utterly fail to see how the start screen being full screen is any disadvantage when you have it open for a fraction of a second. Returning to the desktop is as simple as opening the program you want, or if you have changed your mind about opening a program clicking on the desktop tile. Bang, you are instantly back on the desktop.

There are just so many different ways to launch programs in Windows 8 that if you really can't stand MUI you can get away without using it at all (with boot to desktop).

Yes I can understand that many non computer literate people find the change difficult, but I find it less easy to understand why so many power users are having the same difficulties adapting.

But it's not as simple as "don't run them", is it?

Yes, I can get round MUI. I can find replacements for default apps for mail, IM, etc, and install them. I can find the file associations and get desktop apps to load so that MUI apps don't, and I can install Start8/ClassicShell etc to avoid MUI, Charm, etc and put buttons and menus where I want them, and I can pin anything from common apps and a shutdown button to the menu. or desktop, or whatever.

And I can configure menus to give me the layout I've been using for years. But my annoyance is that to get to a system that basically just works as it always has, I have to faff about for ages sourcing, installing and configuring a whole load of stuff just to get back to the starting point I work from, when customising Win7 to my needs.

Clearly, a PC is not a one-size-fits all tool, so what mine looks like and what yours look like are going to be different. I'm going to have different programs, and prefer them in different places. I'm going to have different drive arrangements, and store data in different ways. You might not have my genealogy software, or my book database, and I haven't got the program to control the knitting machine you use. So that sort of configuration is inevitable. But now, I've got to go out and spend a whole lot of time undoing and removing the MUI crap MS foisted on me, because they decided it's a better way for me to work.

They COULD have left existing desktop versions in place, not removing them and substituting Modern Apps. They COULD have had a simple switch, or set of switches, to do exactly what Start8 etc, allow us to do, with a "Classic interface" or "Disable/Enable" MUI option or set of options. But they didn't. They decided that for their own strategic reasons, leveraging tablet/mobile sales (or trying to, anyway) they want to move to the "app" arena for desktop PCs. My bet is the next step is to want to change for their apps, or even charge subscriptions for their apps.

And before we know it, a PC won't be a PC because all it'll be is a platform to run a set of subscription apps.

But whether I'm right about the long term objective, or merely the self-evident short-term one of leveraging a decent toehold in the phone/tablet market using existing Windows desktop users, that is the core of my bitterness and anger at MS. It's not that I have trouble working out what to do. It's that MS arrogance has led them to shove it on us, regardless of whether we want it or not.

You might be able to lead horses to water, and no doubt, some of the more compliant ones will drink, even if the water is stagnant, but if you try to force the rest of the horses to drink by holding their heads under water, you've a recipe for ending up with a severe kick from a very pee'd off horse.

It's not just what MS did with MUI. It's how and why they did it.

[TheAnimus]

Because you don't understand that square peg != round hole.

Not really, he is trying to find out what part of the process you really don't like. Instead its borderline insults and condescending tone. I would also suggest your use of browse isn't the ordinary one. I am not sure why I am being 'forced' to browse either. Often I hit a few keypresses for auto complete.

I use two 30" dell 3008WFPs, and don't find it jarring. For any kind of file search, it's much better. The amount of space used by the previous start menu was always wrong, and stubbornly fixed so.

The new shortcuts for settings,applications,files searching again I really find faster and more useful.

The part I really can't stand is the lack of hierarchical system available. I don't know why they don't allow this.

[Willzzz]

Maybe it's just me but I've always done that with every version of windows.

I always install my own browser, mail, IM, graphics, PDF, etc. software. Maybe I used IE a little bit back in the 90s but that's about it.
I see all of these things as compulsory whether it is XP, 7 or 8. A default installation is little more than a blank sheet, sure there are a few 'apps' pre-installed but it takes less than a minute to remove them from the start screen and file associations will get overwritten automatically when you install the replacements.

[aidanjt]

Human peripheral vision is mainly concerned with movement, danger, I'm not sure what the relevance is here and what would cause you to suddenly abort launching a program.

Mainly evolved for among animals, but nowhere near exclusively dedicated for humans. Peripheral vision also allows you to keep track of objects within the scope of what you're working on. But moment your sight of it is broken the context is lost. It's jarring, pointless, and most of all, unnecessary for the job of starting programmes.

The more buttons you have to press the longer it takes, to launch a program from Win8 Start Screen takes 2 simple clicks.

Typing takes *far* less effort than using the mouse, and as I already pointed out, if you want a start menu with a flat dimensionless application list, you can pin a whole bloatload of 'em to your start menu jumplist. And all Microsoft would need to do is make the jumplist scrollable (vertically, as the proper scrolling direction on the desktop) to make it a limitless amount of apps, and maybe add group-tagging.

If it isn't frequently used why is such a hardship to switch to MUI for one second?

For the millionth time, the context switch is jarring and disruptive, this has been soooo well covered since last year. You've been told time and time again the same thing. And just because you, personally, have trained yourself to not realise it, it is an objective usability fact. Arguments from personal incredulity are irrelevant. The fact that Start8 and their ilk exists, and are very successful is proof that a significant volume of the very low proportion of people who actually stuck out Windows 8 on their PCs, found that the only thing the Windows 8 start screen enhanced was their irritability.

Sure, there may be a few rare examples where people have 20+ frequently used programs, but for the 99% then yes I am assuming that.

And then you have no more free room for rarely used applications, so the taskbar will go into the less efficient to use and awkward scroll mode. Brilliant. Also, scanning through 20 useless icons (because they're not executing) to find the handful you're actually working on is distracting and impedes workflow.

I mean 'browse' as in the context you used it here, I obviously know the dictionary definition.
You obviously mean 'browse' to be something specific, you talk about 'browse' as if it were a feature of the OS?

From the context, I was obviously talking about traversing the directory tree structure of the start menu.

All in all, the only arguments I've found from you is how we have to justify our annoyance with the changes to you. But I haven't seen anything from you justifying the change, much less establishing the necessity of requiring it universally. But ultimately, the burden of proof always lies with the company selling the software to show that the new changes are more advantageous for the users. And frankly, they've failed to convince the market. Because repurposing tablet interface designs is only useful to Microsoft, it doesn't help the desktop user in any way at all. Doing that is bad UI design.

[Willzzz]

Typing takes *far* less effort than using the mouse, and as I already pointed out, if you want a start menu with a flat dimensionless application list, you can pin a whole bloatload of 'em to your start menu jumplist. And all Microsoft would need to do is make the jumplist scrollable (vertically, as the proper scrolling direction on the desktop) to make it a limitless amount of apps, and maybe add group-tagging.

Well it depends where your fingers start, if you were previously typing, then yes, if you were already using your mouse then no.

For the millionth time, the context switch is jarring and disruptive, this has been soooo well covered since last year. You've been told time and time again the same thing. And just because you, personally, have trained yourself to not realise it, it is an objective usability fact. Arguments from personal incredulity are irrelevant. The fact that Start8 and their ilk exists, and are very successful is proof that a significant volume of the very low proportion of people who actually stuck out Windows 8 on their PCs, found that the only thing the Windows 8 start screen enhanced was their irritability.

An objective fact? Evidently not.
If you are switching application then you are already having a context switch anyway.
Start8 exists because people get stuck in their ways, when Win7 was first released there were people who went back to the XP start menu.

And then you have no more free room for rarely used applications, so the taskbar will go into the less efficient to use and awkward scroll mode. Brilliant. Also, scanning through 20 useless icons (because they're not executing) to find the handful you're actually working on is distracting and impedes workflow.

Obviously you don't put rarely used programs on your taskbar, but very few people have that many programs that they use anyway.

From the context, I was obviously talking about traversing the directory tree structure of the start menu.

OK, so you were talking about search rather than browse, now I understand. But as I said when this first came out there were many people who thought this was a step backwards, then they got used to a new way of working.

If you don't like Win8 that's fine, don't buy it, but if you feel the need to advise others not to buy it, then yes, you should justify your reasoning.

[aidanjt]

If you don't like Win8 that's fine, don't buy it, but if you feel the need to advise others not to buy it, then yes, you should justify your reasoning.

I'm not telling you to do anything. I couldn't care less what technology you buy into and what you don't. What I do object to are nonsensical precipitous arguments and circular reasoning. If you were genuinely and objectively curious about what people's objections were I wouldn't care, but since you've flat out ignored what people have told you for 8 months that ship has long since sailed.

Start8 exists because people get stuck in their ways

Case in point. Handwave dismissal. Useless trolling.

[Willzzz]

Trolling?
You don't think it is true that people get comfortable doing things in certain ways and don't like change?
You don't think it is a legitimate point to bring up?

[iamlorro]

The Verge overview of the update has some extra screenshots& it makes it sound like a good and proper update that does have a lot of extra functionality *and* features.

I hope they continue to release the next steps as .x and free for another couple of years or so - hardware has got to a point where we've got enough power to cope with a little longer before needing an upgrade.
(My thinking behind this: TB of HDD space = standard. 4GB ram/ more = is standard in mid-range and above... and even celerons are decent now!)

although I've used win 8 it's only been on VM's and without touch, so dont really know much about it.

(Yes, I'm avoiding the start menu button 'discussion')

[Jonj1611]

I think its a bit worrying how often Microsoft are using the term free update, all updates have always been free haven't they? I am more concerned that they are gearing up for a chargeable 8.5 or something further down the line, I mean why keep saying it like it's something new?

[Agent]

I think its a bit worrying how often Microsoft are using the term free update, all updates have always been free haven't they? I am more concerned that they are gearing up for a chargeable 8.5 or something further down the line, I mean why keep saying it like it's something new?

They have been quite open about wanting to move to smaller updates for a while as opposed to the current system of a huge new OS every 6 years or so.