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Thread: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

  1. #33
    rainman
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    Ha, BT poking other providers for shaping when they are very well known for doing it themselves during peak times.

    I pay for 200mbps from VM and I get regularly up to 240mbps. Except for a routing fault, I have never seen my speed substantially drop to anywhere below 75% of my rated speed. I also would bet bottom dollar that Virgin Media are going to be bringing out their 500mbps packages soon as I was speaking to VM engineers not too long ago about the infrastructure and other bits and bobs. The Superhub 3 is capable up to 600mbps and technically each cable connection to each premises can support up to that rated speed.

    The only thing I would really like is for them to up their upload speeds a little bit, I sometimes suffer from the 20mbps when doing my work.
    Step away from the speedchecker websites - Virgin excludes them from their traffic shaping rules, so they're meaningless. You won't get those speeds to/from other services and it's practically impossible for you to prove otherwise.

    Also, those speeds don't mean a lot without half-decent latency - and virgin's latency is shocking. Plenty of FPS and MMO gamers throw in the towel with virgin and move to slower but lower latency services. I find it amazing that in 2018 people (particularly on tech websites) haven't grasped the difference and significance of each.

    I used to be a virgin beta tester back when they were trialling 100mb/s and 120mp/s services, but the last straw with their dreadful network was when a neighbour ordered virgin and an engineer trespassed onto my property to T off from the virgin coax pinned to the wall of my house and run a cable over into a neighbours house and another house nextdoor but one. It literally crippled the barely acceptable service I had. I ordered BT Infinity and as soon as it went live a week later I cancelled virgin and snipped the virgin cable at the point that it came into my house whilst pulling back the cable out to the boundary and leaving it coiled up, shafting my two neighbours in the process. I did explain to my neighbours and they understood and made their own complaints to virgin. There is no way that my property is acting as an exchange for virgin, particularly if I'm not a customer.

    Virgin engineers are total wuckfits and are just cable installers contracted by Kelly. I wouldn't trust a word they say. They don't even understand that it's not the cable that defines the speed but the docsis standard that virgin implements. Ask a virgin engineer about docsis and they'll just look right through you with a 1000 yard stare. I don't know why they don't just employ apes and be done with it.

  2. #34
    rainman
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Let's be honest though, in most cases the real issue is the wider infrastructure, not your personal connection to the local exchange.

    On EE FTTC, I've just run 3 speedtests. The first, using the automatically chosen server, had a download of ~ 13Mbps. The second, using a server that was physically further away but that I guessed might be in a less contended area of the country, hit 22Mbps. The third, to a server that is physically closer but in a location that I know is contended to all hell, managed a whopping 4.5Mbps. That's three readings, all done within a few minutes of each other, on the same connection, with a 4x speed up from slowest to fastest. So how do you regulate that connection speed?
    Add to that, that it's entirely possible/likely that ISPs deliberately don't apply any traffic shaping rules to those speed checker end points or port ranges, and that different rule sets are applied to specific services. Speed checkers mean nothing and there is almost no way you can definitively prove any speed to any given end point. If you haven't got any traffic analysis capability built into your router (and most domestic routers don't) then you've got very little chance of proving anything. Not only that but you've got no way of knowing if the end-point isn't shaping the hell out of their own uplinks anyway.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    This will probably just trigger another superficial response from Virgin Media, pushing their service to 500+ which agreed is good.

    Like most tech-savvy people what would be better than 314mbps or 500mbps+ is the upload speed. I would much rather game at 300/300 than my current 300/20 config. Even on 300 Gamer service with VM I am still only getting 40-50 pings.

  4. #36
    rainman
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by Troopa View Post
    This will probably just trigger another superficial response from Virgin Media, pushing their service to 500+ which agreed is good.

    Like most tech-savvy people what would be better than 314mbps or 500mbps+ is the upload speed. I would much rather game at 300/300 than my current 300/20 config. Even on 300 Gamer service with VM I am still only getting 40-50 pings.
    Upload speeds won't improve your gaming experience. I'd much rather have half the speed and decent latency. With 40-50 ms pings it's hardly a gamer service. It's barely fit for purpose and increasing your upload speed will have no impact. It's response time you need, not speed. If it takes 4 times as long for an FPS game host at the end of a VM link to tell it's end-point that there is more traffic coming, you're already dead before that particular stream of traffic has happened. On a bad day I get 15ms between me and the game server I'm using over BT Infinity. I love playing against virgin customers.

  5. #37
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Virgin engineers are total wuckfits and are just cable installers contracted by Kelly. I wouldn't trust a word they say. They don't even understand that it's not the cable that defines the speed but the docsis standard that virgin implements. Ask a virgin engineer about docsis and they'll just look right through you with a 1000 yard stare. I don't know why they don't just employ apes and be done with it.
    The last BT engineer to have the misfortune of trying to stabilize our 64+ DB attenuation ADSL line, during a period of intermittent fault likely caused by something neither of us have any hope of finding (mysteriously disappeared about a month later) had the time to talk to me about the shape of engineers in general. The guy was clearly in it for the long haul and enjoyed his job, as much as you can when people frequently ask an engineer to do what a team of guys with much better hardware and infrastructure should have done a decade ago.

    Anyway, his point was that in such desperate times when the entire country wants and requires faster internet and the majority of the infrastructure needs replacing without noticeable downtime, they have to employ people who frequently have no understanding of the bigger picture just to get the homes connected. There just aren't enough people who grasp how it works to do the job they needed to do, and worse they don't really have the resources to train them all either. Not just the ones connecting houses, also the engineers attempting to "repair" faults for individual homes.

    I would wager that these guys representing Virgin are likely no different from any other infrastructure provider on the whole and they have a percentage who understand their work completely and a much larger percentage who don't. Smaller orgs like Gigaclear are certain to have a much higher quality of task force because they work on a much smaller scale.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Step away from the speedchecker websites - Virgin excludes them from their traffic shaping rules, so they're meaningless. You won't get those speeds to/from other services and it's practically impossible for you to prove otherwise.

    Also, those speeds don't mean a lot without half-decent latency - and virgin's latency is shocking. Plenty of FPS and MMO gamers throw in the towel with virgin and move to slower but lower latency services. I find it amazing that in 2018 people (particularly on tech websites) haven't grasped the difference and significance of each.

    I used to be a virgin beta tester back when they were trialling 100mb/s and 120mp/s services, but the last straw with their dreadful network was when a neighbour ordered virgin and an engineer trespassed onto my property to T off from the virgin coax pinned to the wall of my house and run a cable over into a neighbours house and another house nextdoor but one. It literally crippled the barely acceptable service I had. I ordered BT Infinity and as soon as it went live a week later I cancelled virgin and snipped the virgin cable at the point that it came into my house whilst pulling back the cable out to the boundary and leaving it coiled up, shafting my two neighbours in the process. I did explain to my neighbours and they understood and made their own complaints to virgin. There is no way that my property is acting as an exchange for virgin, particularly if I'm not a customer.

    Virgin engineers are total wuckfits and are just cable installers contracted by Kelly. I wouldn't trust a word they say. They don't even understand that it's not the cable that defines the speed but the docsis standard that virgin implements. Ask a virgin engineer about docsis and they'll just look right through you with a 1000 yard stare. I don't know why they don't just employ apes and be done with it.
    Looks like you've had some fun! I calculate all my speeds by downloading from my various CSPs and tracing the throughput through my main firewall.

    I get about 15ms higher latency than my colleagues but nothing to write home about, sounds like you must've gotten into some bad luck.

    Only thing I do have to comment is the jitter on a Virgin line is quite high at 2-7ms.

    And frankly, you will find engineers like that wherever you go. I've been quite lucky in my area for Virgin Engineers, they know their business and trade. I have had far worse with OpenReach and have vowed that they would never darken my door ever again. Currently I'm campaigning to get HyperOptic on my road.
    Last edited by Tabbykatze; 17-01-2018 at 11:35 AM.

  7. #39
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Step away from the speedchecker websites ...
    My point wasn't that the speedchecker was a good indication of line speed, but that testing different server endpoints is a good demonstration that not all slow internet problems are down to your ISP. Any traffic coming in on the same route as the slowest connection will also be slow - as much as 5x slower than the fastest of those tests. ISP shaping has absolutely nothing to do with that - the local infrastructure in certain areas is simply inadequate for the amount of traffic moving through it.

  8. #40
    rainman
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozaron View Post
    The last BT engineer to have the misfortune of trying to stabilize our 64+ DB attenuation ADSL line, during a period of intermittent fault likely caused by something neither of us have any hope of finding (mysteriously disappeared about a month later) had the time to talk to me about the shape of engineers in general. The guy was clearly in it for the long haul and enjoyed his job, as much as you can when people frequently ask an engineer to do what a team of guys with much better hardware and infrastructure should have done a decade ago.

    Anyway, his point was that in such desperate times when the entire country wants and requires faster internet and the majority of the infrastructure needs replacing without noticeable downtime, they have to employ people who frequently have no understanding of the bigger picture just to get the homes connected. There just aren't enough people who grasp how it works to do the job they needed to do, and worse they don't really have the resources to train them all either. Not just the ones connecting houses, also the engineers attempting to "repair" faults for individual homes.

    I would wager that these guys representing Virgin are likely no different from any other infrastructure provider on the whole and they have a percentage who understand their work completely and a much larger percentage who don't. Smaller orgs like Gigaclear are certain to have a much higher quality of task force because they work on a much smaller scale.
    I've been working in and around the comms market for years, and you're right that smaller firms tend to have a better stamp of engineer, although within BT you will find plenty of career engineers that have done their time and worked "up poles and down holes", and moved around different areas of the business and gaining lots of experience. But by and large, it doesn't matter who you're buying from, very few companies have the capability to deliver the last mile into your home or commercial premises and the final leg of your circuit will have to be delivered by BT Openreach or Virgin. They are both awful to deal with and they miss install dates with alarming regularity, but having ordered many a tail from both companies into almost every POP in central London and outwards within a 25 mile radius and dealing with "Way Leave's" right left and centre, BT's circuit are far more reliable. Virgin have a pretty solid track record of just digging stuff up without telling anyone and going through a cable for someone else service. I've seen it so many times when working in NOCs for small firms that provide managed services. Virgin hire Kelly engineers who are equipped with the bare minimum of training and most have to even supply their own tools and are literally told to "just connect a cable between points A and B" and that's it. It's a joke.

  9. #41
    rainman
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    My point wasn't that the speedchecker was a good indication of line speed, but that testing different server endpoints is a good demonstration that not all slow internet problems are down to your ISP. Any traffic coming in on the same route as the slowest connection will also be slow - as much as 5x slower than the fastest of those tests. ISP shaping has absolutely nothing to do with that - the local infrastructure in certain areas is simply inadequate for the amount of traffic moving through it.
    You're absolutely right - but in amongst all of that you actually don't know what is being shaped and what isn't. A particular service running between the same exact same end-points as your speed test but using different TCP ports can be managed in a completely different manner to your speed check service. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not as straight forward as simply looking at the point-to-point performance between two hosts, because different types of traffic can be handled differently and rate limited in different ways - just like QOS on your own LAN. An ISP can and does handle specific traffic types differently, even routing them differently too. So if you've got two different services running on a remote host, you can find that the route that one service takes is different to another. No point in doing a tracert because that will only tell you what tracert gets. Essentially, everything you do is effectively a discrete service.

    So my point is that it might not necessarily be anything to do with the infrastructure (but likely is), it could just be shaped to heck, but you have absolutely no way of knowing unless you're the network administrator. If the network wasn't contended then there wouldn't be any need for shaping - so your results could easily be a factor of both.

    Why do you think the US gets all upset about net neutrality? You think we don't already have that issue in the UK? We do, but no one seems to care too much.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    You're right, everything is shaped to some degree or the other and all we can do is select some services to evaluate their performance to then establish the network speed and decide whether to complain or not against getting what was advertised.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    You're absolutely right - but in amongst all of that you actually don't know what is being shaped and what isn't.
    That's true for the cheap packet shifters, the good ISPs tell you. Zen don't shape or filter, but they aren't cheap on an unlimited setup.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    That's true for the cheap packet shifters, the good ISPs tell you. Zen don't shape or filter, but they aren't cheap on an unlimited setup.
    Zen are top notch! First pick for my business ISP recommendations.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    That's true for the cheap packet shifters, the good ISPs tell you. Zen don't shape or filter, but they aren't cheap on an unlimited setup.
    Zen are a BT Openreach reseller.

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Zen are a BT Openreach reseller.
    Yup but they are not tied to "BT Internet" policies, so can offer a much better service.
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  16. #47
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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    Yup but they are not tied to "BT Internet" policies, so can offer a much better service.
    I'm not sure how you work that out? BT Openreach is the wholesale arm of BT and it's a BT Openreach circuit which has to be delivered over a BT line, which means BT are involved at every step of the way. No way of avoiding it. They're just a middle-man. If BT fails to deliver then that means Zen fails too - because your contract is with Zen. I'm really lost to work out how someone can offer a better service than the service they're reselling. It can only be "as good".

    They can't install any quicker, they can't fix a problem any quicker, and they can't make it any faster. What is there left to improve?

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    Re: BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    I'm not sure how you work that out? BT Openreach is the wholesale arm of BT and it's a BT Openreach circuit which has to be delivered over a BT line, which means BT are involved at every step of the way. No way of avoiding it. They're just a middle-man. If BT fails to deliver then that means Zen fails too - because your contract is with Zen. I'm really lost to work out how someone can offer a better service than the service they're reselling. It can only be "as good".

    They can't install any quicker, they can't fix a problem any quicker, and they can't make it any faster. What is there left to improve?
    I think you're misunderstanding the principles of how House > Circuit > ISP backbone works. Sure they're using a BT circuit to get between house and ISP Tier 1-2 Backbone but after the BT Circuit has been traversed, it's in Zens infrastructure and they can control it how they want.

    The only thing Zen can't control and push to be faster is how quickly OpenReach get off their behinds and do the job they need to do. Zen pay BT for either specific Circuits to be put in or they rent an existing circuit, but OpenReach is just the carrier to their infrastructure.
    Last edited by Tabbykatze; 17-01-2018 at 03:31 PM.

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