BT launches 152Mbps and 314Mbps ultrafast fibre packages

[rainman]

I think you're misunderstanding the principles of how House > Circuit > ISP backbone works. Sure they're using a BT circuit to get between house and ISP Tier 1-2 Backbone but after the BT Circuit has been traversed, it's in Zens infrastructure and they can control it how they want.

I understand pretty well, having been responsible for a NOC at a network company providing managed services to MOD, government and financial institutions as just one of the roles I've performed in my 30 years as a consultant. Yes, they can use their own backhaul and peer with whoever they want, but that IP traffic has to get there first and you cannot avoid it going through Openreach in the first instance. I'm not disputing that they may manage traffic differently once (if) it's on the Zen network, but Zen don't own the whole end to end service so a big chunk of it is out of their control. The "principle" might be one thing, but in practice it's an ass dressed as a donkey - in essence the same thing.

The fact remains that Zen can't provide you any service at all without BT being involved at almost every step, from initial sales through to customer support - you might not have to talk to BT directly (and that's not a bad thing) but they will be in the background doing something related to your service should something need fixing or changing. So if that's a given, how does Zen improve on the product that it has to use to deliver it's own service?

[Tabbykatze]

I understand pretty well, having been responsible for a NOC at a network company providing managed services to MOD, government and financial institutions as just one of the roles I've performed in my 30 years as a consultant. Yes, they can use their own backhaul and peer with whoever they want, but that IP traffic has to get there first and you cannot avoid it going through Openreach in the first instance. I'm not disputing that they may manage traffic differently once (if) it's on the Zen network, but Zen don't own the whole end to end service so a big chunk of it is out of their control.

The fact remains that Zen can't provide you any service at all without BT being involved at almost every step, from initial sales through to customer support - you might not have to talk to BT directly (and that's not a bad thing) but they will be in the background doing something related to your service should something need fixing or changing. So if that's a given, how does Zen improve on the product that it has to use to deliver it's own service?

Because if BT mucks around with Zens custom and sale then Zen can poke BT for moneys. Yes, BT are involved from your home to the Zen Infrastructure but BT can't shape Zens leased line however they want, that is not the terms of Zens agreement.

You seem to think that BT have full control to whatever the hell they want whenever they want to whoever leases their lines. That is where you're wrong, the contractual agreements between the ISPs and OpenReach are pretty irontight, the only thing that OpenReach can do is apply contention rationing if the local DSLAMs are getting overloaded but otherwise they have to deliver that connection to Zen.

BT does not apply shaping at the DSLAM level, they apply shaping in their infrastructure.

[rainman]

Because if BT mucks around with Zens custom and sale then Zen can poke BT for moneys. Yes, BT are involved from your home to the Zen Infrastructure but BT can't shape Zens leased line however they want, that is not the terms of Zens agreement.

You seem to think that BT have full control to whatever the hell they want whenever they want to whoever leases their lines. That is where you're wrong, the contractual agreements between the ISPs and OpenReach are pretty irontight, the only thing that OpenReach can do is apply contention rationing if the local DSLAMs are getting overloaded but otherwise they have to deliver that connection to Zen.

BT does not apply shaping at the DSLAM level, they apply shaping in their infrastructure.

Agreed, but first you're making an assumption that absolutely all traffic does end up on the Zen backhaul. Also, how do you know that this is even in their service agreement? And as a customer how would you ever know if one day Zen decided that they don't want to fund their own backhaul and just contract BT to deliver the whole lot? Plenty of Openreach resellers do just that. I'm pretty sure that Zen's service agreements with BT are unlikely to be reflected in the contract between Zen and it's customers, so to a customer Zen's only responsibility is to deliver the service that they've advertised and how they deliver it is a choice for them to make.

[shaithis]

Agreed, but first you're making an assumption that absolutely all traffic does end up on the Zen backhaul. Also, how do you know that this is even in their service agreement? And as a customer how would you ever know if one day Zen decided that they don't want to fund their own backhaul and just contract BT to deliver the whole lot? Plenty of Openreach resellers do just that. I'm pretty sure that Zen's service agreements with BT are unlikely to be reflected in the contract between Zen and it's customers, so to a customer Zen's only responsibility is to deliver the service that they've advertised and how they deliver it is a choice for them to make.

Because they would be in breach of advertising/trading standards....from their site:

It means exactly that – no limits on what you can download and no limits when it comes to speed. Unlike other providers, we don’t have a Fair Usage Policy or enforce Traffic Management – that means we don’t artificially slow down your connection to allow other users to access our network, which would in turn make your speeds slower. This means you can enjoy your unlimited download allowance at the fastest speed your connection can support, at any given time – no matter what type of media, service of application you’re trying to access.

[DanceswithUnix]

Agreed, but first you're making an assumption that absolutely all traffic does end up on the Zen backhaul. Also, how do you know that this is even in their service agreement? And as a customer how would you ever know if one day Zen decided that they don't want to fund their own backhaul and just contract BT to deliver the whole lot? Plenty of Openreach resellers do just that. I'm pretty sure that Zen's service agreements with BT are unlikely to be reflected in the contract between Zen and it's customers, so to a customer Zen's only responsibility is to deliver the service that they've advertised and how they deliver it is a choice for them to make.

You are right that I am on Openreach for the last mile. BT can and indeed have messed that up, I think that was when I was on Eclipse but the same applies still. However, IME any packet messing happens in the ISP network not in the BT exchange. I have yet to see any evidence of packet shenanigans, and from being with Eclipse (who mildly traffic shaped but with full disclosure) I am pretty sure I could spot it if it happened.

[peterb]

Agreed, but first you're making an assumption that absolutely all traffic does end up on the Zen backhaul. Also, how do you know that this is even in their service agreement? And as a customer how would you ever know if one day Zen decided that they don't want to fund their own backhaul and just contract BT to deliver the whole lot? Plenty of Openreach resellers do just that. I'm pretty sure that Zen's service agreements with BT are unlikely to be reflected in the contract between Zen and it's customers, so to a customer Zen's only responsibility is to deliver the service that they've advertised and how they deliver it is a choice for them to make.

Zen don't contact BT, they contact Openreach who are the network operators. Zen may lease their backhaul from Openreach (or any other entity that owns infrastructure).

Openreach might be part of the BT group, but they are a separate company and not a retail ISP. BT Retail, who are an ISP like Zen, have the same commercial relationship with Openreach as Zen.

[Snaga]

and here i sit in kent getting a stinking 4 meg. not much fun when my daughter starts watching you tube.

[spacein_vader]

and here i sit in kent getting a stinking 4 meg. not much fun when my daughter starts watching you tube.

I have 80meg but it still isn't much fun when my daughter watches YouTube. Some of the dross on there is beyond words.

[Ozaron]

I have 80meg but it still isn't much fun when my daughter watches YouTube. Some of the dross on there is beyond words.

I instinctively laughed because of how Youtube is evolving, (or devolving, actually) but the truth is that their platform is still full of incredible content. It's just hidden behind the same mountains and seas of garbage that seem to build up on every website of note. I'm sure you can find the entire discography of the majority of your favourite musical artists on it, immediately, for free.

Also, Youtube isn't much fun on a 1.8mbps connection when *I'm* the only one using it.

[spacein_vader]

I instinctively laughed because of how Youtube is evolving, (or devolving, actually) but the truth is that their platform is still full of incredible content. It's just hidden behind the same mountains and seas of garbage that seem to build up on every website of note. I'm sure you can find the entire discography of the majority of your favourite musical artists on it, immediately, for free.

Also, Youtube isn't much fun on a 1.8mbps connection when *I'm* the only one using it.

Oh I know there's some great stuff on there, just she doesn't watch any of it.

[rainman]

Zen don't contact BT, they contact Openreach who are the network operators. Zen may lease their backhaul from Openreach (or any other entity that owns infrastructure).

Openreach might be part of the BT group, but they are a separate company and not a retail ISP. BT Retail, who are an ISP like Zen, have the same commercial relationship with Openreach as Zen.

If you read my previous posts you'd see I'd distinguished the difference and mentioned at length BT Openreach. I do understand the difference, but by the time I'd made the post that you've quoted I'd just boiled it down to the lowest common denominator. The relationship between Zen, BT and BT Openreach is not in question here.

[peterb]

If you read my previous posts you'd see I'd distinguished the difference and mentioned at length BT Openreach. I do understand the difference, but by the time I'd made the post that you've quoted I'd just boiled it down to the lowest common denominator. The relationship between Zen, BT and BT Openreach is not in question here.

Thank you.

I had read your previous post, but I cannot assume everyone else does, so my post is really for clarity. The distinction between the multiple entities that comprise BT is an important one.

[Tabbykatze]

The relationship between Zen, BT and BT Openreach is not in question here.

Well it is a little bit

This is because you're insinuating that BT have effective control over Zens ability to provide their own service.

[dannyboy75]

The only thing I would really like is for them to up their upload speeds a little bit, I sometimes suffer from the 20mbps when doing my work.

You poor love! I lived with 350kbps upload (and 2mbps down) for several years, until our street was fibred last year. Even now I only get 9mbps up and 50 down.

[tomthum]

BT are the last broadband provider I would ever go with they are such a rip off company
I will stick with Zen
the sooner 5G comes out were we don't need landlines then it will be great the BT landlines are
the biggest rip off out

Tom G Scotland

[Phage]

I used to regularly visit the DVD section of the charity shops...