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Thread: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

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    All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    But, like Intel, there will be some 'F type' variants to harvest otherwise wasted silicon.
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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    BIOS updates via USB as a standard feature is really good, gets away from having to have a CPU to update a bios to bring compatibility to a board. Does this indicate that AM5 will be another long generation board then?

    And hooray for on die graphics for all, this might mean more development of the iGPU-dGPU offloading/passthrough which Intel seems to have down quite well.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Personally I'd rather have the space on the die used for an igpu used for more cpu cores, especially on the upper end of the range.....not to mention the potential impact on the tdp side of things.

    When you're looking at 12 or 16+ cores (arguably at 8+) wasting space on a gpu seems rather pointless seeing as most people will add a more powerful dgpu to go with said high performance cpu.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Personally I like the idea . last few boards I've have on board graphics if wanted or needed and have good for initial set up then plonking in a discrete card afterwards after testing. Having the option of better graphics in the chip itself sounds good for someone wanting a fast PC and not worrying about extra cost of a discrete card if they are not into gaming. Through most average peeps I meet , not into gaming just use their PC's for everyday stuff so even 6 cores is a waste , 4 cores would suffice easily. Unless you are doing something specialised that require a high core count this craze for more cores is about as relevent as the RGB fad , marketing = £ notes and joe public fall for it. Damn it , my spare machine ( Old Phenom 11 965 Quad core minces everything I want to do, Internet ,Publshing , graphic design and even some older games if I wanted but don't.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    Personally I'd rather have the space on the die used for an igpu used for more cpu cores, especially on the upper end of the range.....not to mention the potential impact on the tdp side of things.

    When you're looking at 12 or 16+ cores (arguably at 8+) wasting space on a gpu seems rather pointless seeing as most people will add a more powerful dgpu to go with said high performance cpu.
    It's likely the GPU will be on the IO die and not on the CPU die.

    If Intel has managed to have a GPU on their core dies without causing too much issue for the rest of the die then AMD should do so, it is one of the persisting problems of AMD processors.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    Personally I'd rather have the space on the die used for an igpu used for more cpu cores, especially on the upper end of the range.....not to mention the potential impact on the tdp side of things.

    When you're looking at 12 or 16+ cores (arguably at 8+) wasting space on a gpu seems rather pointless seeing as most people will add a more powerful dgpu to go with said high performance cpu.
    Given AMD's chiplet push, there is a good chance the integrated GPU would be on the IO die, not the CPU core chiplet. As discussed in another thread. Also mentioned in that thread is the possibility that this move could be driven by the IOD becoming pad limited at 6nm; if so, then you either have unused space, or etch a small GPU onto the die which could be immeasurably useful for the huge amount of customers who have no want or need for a substantial discrete GPU. E.g. business or education. Most AMD CPUs are effectively excluded from those markets at the moment because of the lack of integrated video output.

    People have been making the "IGP is wasted space" or "IGP wastes power" argument with Intel CPUs for a long time, but even there it's not really that simple. GPUs are different to CPU cores in terms of yield, power density, etc. Not to mention that when idle (or gated off when a discrete GPU is used), the IGP power consumption is negligible or effectively nil. Plus the larger die can help to some degree with heat dissipation.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    iGPU on 12 cores and above does not make sense at current level of silicon development, I consider it HEDT. The people who spend $500 on a CPU don't joke with graphics.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    iGPU on 12 cores and above does not make sense at current level of silicon development, I consider it HEDT. The people who spend $500 on a CPU don't joke with graphics.
    Well, except HEDT should be multi-monitor and if this 'free' iGPU can drive a few monitors and decode video it should be quite useful. Before I swapped to 1440P I had one of my 1080P screen power of the Intel Ivy Bridge onboard (BTW, IB doesn't seem to support 1440P at least on my board), and this stops most GPUs from running their memory or core at higher clocks to support multiple monitors. Using onboard should allow GPUs with Zero RPM fan mode to stay quiet in most setups.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    I think AMD is making a move in time to entirely render a GFX card for professional use only... and if done right, then it could be an interesting future and more simple for PC's

    Look at soundcards and NIC, Controller card now being onboard Motherboard features, could render PCI ports for other use instead.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    iGPU on 12 cores and above does not make sense at current level of silicon development, I consider it HEDT. The people who spend $500 on a CPU don't joke with graphics.
    Ryzen CPUs have struggled to find adoption in the home enthusiast and SMB server market due to the lack of iGPU, at the very least this fixes that problem and opens up new revenue avenues. That and in the world of component shortages, getting a capable CPU to do business work on where the GPU can drive enough is actually in use a lot more than you think.

    Pretty much all 1L business systems, SFF office worker computers all forgo the use of a dGPU simply because it's too expensive/won't fit for large volume worker systems.

    And AMD operates on a unified product stack so if it's going to have an iGPU at one end, it's cheaper to make it so there's an iGPU on the other because of their chiplet building block methodology.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    It's likely the GPU will be on the IO die and not on the CPU die.

    If Intel has managed to have a GPU on their core dies without causing too much issue for the rest of the die then AMD should do so, it is one of the persisting problems of AMD processors.
    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Given AMD's chiplet push, there is a good chance the integrated GPU would be on the IO die, not the CPU core chiplet. As discussed in another thread. Also mentioned in that thread is the possibility that this move could be driven by the IOD becoming pad limited at 6nm; if so, then you either have unused space, or etch a small GPU onto the die which could be immeasurably useful for the huge amount of customers who have no want or need for a substantial discrete GPU. E.g. business or education. Most AMD CPUs are effectively excluded from those markets at the moment because of the lack of integrated video output.

    People have been making the "IGP is wasted space" or "IGP wastes power" argument with Intel CPUs for a long time, but even there it's not really that simple. GPUs are different to CPU cores in terms of yield, power density, etc. Not to mention that when idle (or gated off when a discrete GPU is used), the IGP power consumption is negligible or effectively nil. Plus the larger die can help to some degree with heat dissipation.
    While I'm not doubting AMD can do what they're intending, it's more about 'why bother' in regards to the higher tier models, especially if it's basically a 'low perforamnce' gpu. Yes there is a unification of manufacture (same chips for all models) and in all honesty this is likely what is leading this but it just seems pointless for the higher core count models.

    It's very rare to find anyone with a use case (normal desktop user at least) where people wanting 10+ cpu cores are running with low end gpu's, hell 90% of my software which makes use of high core counts can't even run on low end gpu's.

    Now I might be a bit different in this but I ALWAYS have a spare gpu when I build my pc's, I've kept my last 2 gpu's 'just in case' (good job in current climate) but even if you didn't you could (pre covid) pick up a 'spare' low end gpu for about £50 (or less).

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    this is a good thing. there will always be trx40+(w/e next gen will be) for the people who don't want an iGPU. Quite frankly if you need a cpu for CPU intensive work, you should be considering it over AM5 anyways. (ignoring budget constraints) If you don't need it for cpu intensive work, then an iGPU really only helps. Personally excited at the prospect of having AMD SmartShift Technology as a native feature.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    While I'm not doubting AMD can do what they're intending, it's more about 'why bother' in regards to the higher tier models, especially if it's basically a 'low perforamnce' gpu. Yes there is a unification of manufacture (same chips for all models) and in all honesty this is likely what is leading this but it just seems pointless for the higher core count models.

    It's very rare to find anyone with a use case (normal desktop user at least) where people wanting 10+ cpu cores are running with low end gpu's, hell 90% of my software which makes use of high core counts can't even run on low end gpu's.

    Now I might be a bit different in this but I ALWAYS have a spare gpu when I build my pc's, I've kept my last 2 gpu's 'just in case' (good job in current climate) but even if you didn't you could (pre covid) pick up a 'spare' low end gpu for about £50 (or less).
    On the contrary, it would require more expense and SKU complication by producing yet another die without an IGP. And again, if they are indeed pad-limited with a 6nm IO die, they could well be producing a silicon die with a large amount of empty space. Much better to just produce the same die for both, and disable the IGP on some models, which could substantially improve overall yields, save costs, and reduce the number of separate silicon dies in production, i.e. part of the reason for going the chiplet route in the first place.

    Also, remember this is not just talking about 10+ core devices, though I suspect those using >10C and not requiring a high-end gaming GPU is not as uncommon as you're implying. And when it's really no problem to just include a GPU that can be power gated when not used, it really isn't a detriment in any case. As I mentioned earlier, remember AMD currently have a bit of a product gap for business/education machines (amongst others) where discrete GPUs are wholly unnecessary and Intel have that market effectively to themselves with their integrated GPU across their desktop product stack. AMD do of course have their APUs, but they're not what I'd call budget parts, and don't use their chiplet model.

    For way of comparison, a dual core Skylake die with integrated graphics is ballpark 100mm2 on 14nm. AMD's Cezanne is around 180mm2 on 7nm. That matters for budget parts.

    Regarding spare GPUs, that doesn't really apply to the use cases I've described, nor to SFF systems where there's no room for an expansion card. And why pay £50 when you can have it built-in in case you need it? Remember again, there's no reason you're losing out on anything because of this. Even in value terms, if the die cannot be shrunk because of pad limitations anyway.

    Edit: Link to discussion in other thread, for reference. https://forums.hexus.net/hexus-news/...ml#post4299592
    Last edited by watercooled; 24-08-2021 at 05:07 PM.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    It's very rare to find anyone with a use case (normal desktop user at least) where people wanting 10+ cpu cores are running with low end gpu's, hell 90% of my software which makes use of high core counts can't even run on low end gpu's.
    I buy engineering workstations, usually with 12 or 16 cores though more would be nice. The GPU choice is "what lets me plug in two 1440p monitors" to edit lots of c++ or vhdl code on.

    I perversely have to buy X570 motherboards atm as well, because I need two PCIe x16 (well x8 really) cards and thanks to the GPU requirement that I don't really care about I end up needing *three* x16 slots which really limits the board choice.

    So as a business buyer, I'm really really liking this idea.

    Then there's the whole small server thing where I have to waste money on a GT710 just to get the thing to boot.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    A lot of workstations don't need a highend GPU,so having an IGP is not such a bad thing IMHO.

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    Re: All AMD Zen4 processors to feature iGPUs by design

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    Ryzen CPUs have struggled to find adoption in the home enthusiast and SMB server market due to the lack of iGPU, at the very least this fixes that problem and opens up new revenue avenues. That and in the world of component shortages, getting a capable CPU to do business work on where the GPU can drive enough is actually in use a lot more than you think.

    Pretty much all 1L business systems, SFF office worker computers all forgo the use of a dGPU simply because it's too expensive/won't fit for large volume worker systems.

    And AMD operates on a unified product stack so if it's going to have an iGPU at one end, it's cheaper to make it so there's an iGPU on the other because of their chiplet building block methodology.
    Exactly my thoughts on this. My 4 month old build is Intel, mainly due to the pricing back in March but also because having an iGPU meant I could have a usable computer immediately. I was lucky to get my 10700K for $275 including sales tax - at the time the 3200G was $220 and dGPU pricing was (and still is) a rip-off.

    Most business PCs don't need anything more than an iGPU and the same for home builds. AMDs current product stack isn't great either, with zero PCI-E 4.0 support on their APU range with slightly lower clocks. Intel on the other hand simply make everything with an iGPU and (I assume) disable it if it doesn't work and sell it for a few $ less as an -F model - but one that is functionally identical to the non-F model in compute terms.

    The arguments I see from people about high core count CPUs not coming with an iGPU - arguably that's what HEDT is for (Intel doesn't include iGPUs on their HEDT CPUs) - but I still don't understand the concern about higher temps. That and having backup video output so that you still have a usable computer without a dGPU just seems like a nice option to have should you want it - and it won't hurt having it even if you don't.

    It's one area that I'd argue AMD has been behind on, and this certainly makes AMD for 2x office based PCs that I'll be replacing in the next year an option.

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