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Thread: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Just to demonstrate the scale of the concern, take a look at some rough estimates of raw silicon costs for CPUs/GPUs: https://forums.hexus.net/cpus/371038...ml#post4112303

    The raw costs are quite a bit less than people generally expect. Take Zen2 for example (Zen3 isn't very different in this regard). Adding on the IO die, lets say something like $30 raw cost as a high estimate.

    So a whole $3 added to the purchase cost if AMD didn't absorb the difference. Whatever will we do?

    The historic panic over blank silicon prices rising by like 5% was even more unfounded.

    Stuff like this does just happen in the industry, and have very little bearing on end products, with the exception of products where margins are quite small such as commodity products like memory and storage.

    Not to mention prices generally trend downward over time, along with increased yields with node maturity. So even a 10% hike could just look like a bump on a downward slope.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    The problem is the companies then using that to excuse higher end prices to the consumer. As Steve from Gamersnexus said in his 6600XT,even if copper prices went up a lot,if there is only a few dollars of copper in a GPU,its really adds very little to the cost.

    Even Corky on here pointed out,the justification to increase price due to addition freight cost,ignores the fact the costs have been similar over 5 years ago,and it was just very depressed before the pandemic.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Perhaps, but that's still at odds with the downward competitive and market pressure that prevented them from settling on those prices in the first place. They don't need an excuse for higher prices, but the market dictates whether they will gain from it.

    One benefit of the freight thing, is I have noticed a few companies seem to have significantly shrunk their excessive packaging. Silver linings I guess!

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Perhaps, but that's still at odds with the downward competitive and market pressure that prevented them from settling on those prices in the first place. They don't need an excuse for higher prices, but the market dictates whether they will gain from it.

    One benefit of the freight thing, is I have noticed a few companies seem to have significantly shrunk their excessive packaging. Silver linings I guess!
    The problem is the pandemic has probably enabled a bit of a "gentlemen's agreement" in different industries,as governments are sidetracked by things. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if in another 5~10 years,we might find this has happened,and companies get fined.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Perhaps, but that's still at odds with the downward competitive and market pressure that prevented them from settling on those prices in the first place. They don't need an excuse for higher prices, but the market dictates whether they will gain from it.

    One benefit of the freight thing, is I have noticed a few companies seem to have significantly shrunk their excessive packaging. Silver linings I guess!
    I can think of another: while prices are high I won't be upgrading so eventually less e-waste.

    Obviously there are far too many "because I'm worth it" who will by stuff at vastly inflated prices, but for me longer drawn-out upgrade cycles are a good thing.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    I can think of another: while prices are high I won't be upgrading so eventually less e-waste.

    Obviously there are far too many "because I'm worth it" who will by stuff at vastly inflated prices, but for me longer drawn-out upgrade cycles are a good thing.
    But also it is pricing out people who don't have as much money in the first place,and are keeping stuff longer. Plus with the mainstream PC builder who is more price constrained,if parts are going up in price,mainstream parts will get relatively worse and worse,so it means less of a performance jump meaning they are more likely to be not fit for purpose quicker.

    My mate who was on an old hand me down FX6300 system,and had an old Athlon X2 before that,eventually upgraded to a Ryzen 5 3600 after many years of saving. Their GPU died,and the old GTX660 they had,didn't play nice with the new system. So they ended up getting a GTX980 for over £200 as that is all they could find,which wasn't worse than an RX580 at the time.

    But this is an old GPU with no warranty,and no driver support which might fail sooner rather than later,and its performance is already having problems. So in the end they will upgrade quicker,as the card leaves driver support or if it goes kaput quicker. But their GPU budget is reduced so it means a weaker GPU,in the future,so it will again be replaced quicker.

    Plus even those who can afford it,are thinking why bother? I am seeing more and more of my PC gaming mates,move away from PC to consoles,or are considering just getting a laptop(which are less repairable). So if you get a console,you are more likely to want to invest in a nice,new shiny TV. If the laptop goes kaput,well then its junk!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 27-08-2021 at 11:32 AM.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Yeah, a while ago there used to be a lot of pricing pressure on GPU companies from the PC gamers of the day. Excessive GPU pricing used to get laughed at!

    The current generation of PCMR and similar though, just seem prepared to get ripped off as they simply must have th3 b3st at any cost...

    Mining obviously doesn't help matters, but it's not the only factor. Gamers are still buying GPUs at hugely inflated prices.

    On the other hand, one can avoid a fair amount of cost by steering clear of the fairly light trend on 'gaming' hardware! In some areas, it seems like component pricing has dropped where it's not RGB-enabled.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Modern gamers are increasingly blithering idiots,and basically are whales. £100s on microtransactions in games! Then they make fun of the women on Twitch,but those women are raking in cash,because they understand how many gamers have no concept of money....apparently. Whose the fool now?? Not the Twitch streamers it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Yeah, a while ago there used to be a lot of pricing pressure on GPU companies from the PC gamers of the day. Excessive GPU pricing used to get laughed at!

    The current generation of PCMR and similar though, just seem prepared to get ripped off as they simply must have th3 b3st at any cost...

    Mining obviously doesn't help matters, but it's not the only factor. Gamers are still buying GPUs at hugely inflated prices.

    On the other hand, one can avoid a fair amount of cost by steering clear of the fairly light trend on 'gaming' hardware! In some areas, it seems like component pricing has dropped where it's not RGB-enabled.
    PSUs,cases and CPU coolers have seen some decent price drops,especially for damaged box items. So its a good time to acquire these now IMHO!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 27-08-2021 at 04:36 PM.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    There is a very very nasty streak of misogyny in a lot of online gamer circles. Not just the regular sexism but really scary stuff. People totally disconnected from half of humanity.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Gamers are still buying GPUs at hugely inflated prices.
    It doesn't help that individuals have decided to jump on the scalping bandwagon, this YouTube Video talks about yesterdays drop of 17k GPU's over the pond, in it the guy mentions how some of those who were first in the queue were going back along the line trying to sell a GPU they just bought for a markup and how they'll probably go straight home and stick it up on eBay.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by Iota View Post
    Just a bit...

    https://www.drewry.co.uk/supply-chai...ssed-by-drewry

    I'm sure most of the other costs are not insignificant, especially when transporting the raw materials is already going to be significantly increased over the last two years.
    Here's another one: https://www.aircargonews.net/data-hu...tes-tac-index/

    Generally chips don't move via containerized freight. The value is too high.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    There is a very very nasty streak of misogyny in a lot of online gamer circles. Not just the regular sexism but really scary stuff. People totally disconnected from half of humanity.
    Considering they have no concept of financial management,its quite clear they are disconnected from reality too!

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Ah OK, I misunderstood. That wasn't the comment thread I was (intentionally) responding to.

    @CAT: The power thing is getting a bit extreme now. I consider my 1080 a quite reasonable 180W board power, but its current equivalent in the product stack (at least in terms of model numbers), the 3080, gets upwards of 350W with some aftermarket cards - essentially double! People often refer to efficiency in terms of perf/W, but that doesn't really matter a great deal when you're pulling a given amount of power constantly to play games. It's not like the race-to-sleep concept where working faster to complete a task can end up using less power - a more power-hungry GPU just uses more power, full stop.

    Sure, for a given performance level, it's obviously desirable to use less power whilst doing it, but GPU power consumption just seems to be spiralling upwards. To the point that a few friends who bought 3080's have been complaining about noticeably higher room temperature while gaming.
    With some driver features you can get race-to-idle - stuff like radeon chill. High refresh rate screens everywhere make this harder though, and it's not a linear scaling like perf/watt suggests

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Yeah that is a point, but it's not particularly common sadly (and I don't think Nvidia has anything similar?). Ideally, using a higher-end GPU to play an older game shouldn't be maxing its power consumption, but that is quite often the case regardless.

    Plus GPUs in general (plus their memory) don't seem that rapid when it comes to downclocking/gating. The memory alone (particularly GDDR6X) running at full clocks draws a considerable amount of power. It is something that is better than it used to be, with more fine-grained clock and power gating, but there still seems to be some work to do. I also wish more games would actually idle properly when paused!

    It would be interesting to see some comparisons of power consumption at a fixed refresh rate. Even then, it's not necessarily a fair comparison as frame latency could be different enough to be noticeable, but it would be something.

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Samsung has decided it wants 20% more for its foundry services too, says this report from Korea:

    http://www.thelec.net/news/articleView.html?idxno=3302

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    Re: Insiders say TSMC has decided to raise prices by 10-20 per cent

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Yeah that is a point, but it's not particularly common sadly (and I don't think Nvidia has anything similar?)
    Sort of. Not to the point of adjusting game frame rates like Chill (there's a separate frame rate limiter in Nvidia) but race to idle and reusing old frames in buffer is provided by setting 'Optimal' power mode (cf 'adaptive' (no frame reuse, just power according to load) or 'maximum power' (fewer clock changes)).

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