The eight guises of Vista

[directhex]

starter won't be sold in the west. for one thing, the lack of networking support won't be popular in a world of wireless and broadband

[SpinJaunt]

Better idea would of been One phyiscal box, but you buy a different license, or pay by feature after a 30/60 day trial?

Me, i'll just pick the most basic Vista just for games and use FreeBSD/KDE for everything else

[dangel]

Windows had nothing really to do with the acceptance of computers into homes - that honour lies with MS-DOS helping the rise of the IBM-compatibles. after that, as prices started to reach "acceptable", it was purely down to clever business tactics (and the rapid commoditization of hardware). http://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=67911 is a fine example of why windows *still* isn't about "easy" - deleting an application is the same on a new intel dual-core osx mac as it was on the Apple Macintosh 21 years ago.

things haven't really gotten any easier in the past 10-20 years, from the MS-DOS Executive to Windows Vista. different, sure, but no easier.

I'd say that 8 bit machines really pushed computers into the home - the speccy was probably the first really MAJOR inroad into the bedrooms of millions of kids. Thenafter the 16bit revolution - Amiga and Atari ST both of which held off the PC for quite a while as they were simply more powerful (and in the case of the Amiga the OS was infinitely better than both the Mac and the PC).
Of course in time the PC got faster/cheaper and the software improved - windows specifically - and crushed the competition. Apple really wasn't much to shout about IMHO until OSX - before that they were unstable (yes I used them a lot) and didn't really multitask very well - this left the door well open for Microsoft who only really had to equal the functionality as the hardware was a lot cheaper (and still arguably is).

Windows (XP/Vista) is infinitely easier to use than MS-DOS - I really can't see where you get the idea that things haven't progressed massively.

[MakaveliThaDon]

Yes, I totally agree. Win Xp is massively more user-friendly than MS-DOS, the conclusion that it isn't is absurd. I would say XP is the best Windows that has been made, not sure about Vista, that is to be discovered.
As far as the Mac goes, yes, it is stable, yes, it is very reliable, but where is the choice? Windows may be susceptable to breaking down but at least you have a choice of what hardware and software you want to have. Mac is more of a specialist PC, whereas PC is accessible by anyone.

[directhex]

Windows (XP/Vista) is infinitely easier to use than MS-DOS - I really can't see where you get the idea that things haven't progressed massively.

is dealing with driver bugs, spyware, random conflicts and STOP errors really that much easier than the occasional IRQ conflict? different, not easier

[kapowaz]

but not Xerox , who actually invented the WIMP system ?

Well, Xerox never sold a personal computer, so probably not.

[dangel]

is dealing with driver bugs, spyware, random conflicts and STOP errors really that much easier than the occasional IRQ conflict? different, not easier

Yes, I can see how the command line was so much better Sorry but rarely do i have a driver issue, conflict or stop error (the latter is so rare thesedays on my XP pc's at home and work it's easy to forget how far we've come). XP is a stable, fast multitasking environment that you can happily put on your parents PC and they can LEARN FOR THEMSELVES how to use it. The built in help is great, file management is far easier (search/no stupid 8x3 filenames), remote desktop is a lifesaver and they don't need to learn an obscure set of commands to operate it - they have a mouse and a plethora of visual prompts and cues to help them use every bit of software. That's EASIER not just fecking different Computers have had to adapt to those who use them - and that's no longer the bedroom hacker or the under 20's.

Of course, for those desiring obscurity there's always linux

[Mimp]

Well they're not all aimed at everyone so although there are a large number of different products noone is ever really going to be choosing from the whole range.
What's up with the EU versions shipping without media player? personally i hate the thing so i'm rather chuffed, I just don't really understand. I'm guessing it's some legal issue..

[directhex]

Yes, I can see how the command line was so much better Sorry but rarely do i have a driver issue, conflict or stop error (the latter is so rare thesedays on my XP pc's at home and work it's easy to forget how far we've come).

whereas i've only ever had problems. try and click on a .avi file which hasn't finished encoding yet? explorer goes tits-up. try plugging in a Belkin usb 802.11b adapter? STOP error. try using some random codec to view some video files? it works on all your PCs but one, with no clue why it doesn't work on that last one.

XP is a stable, fast multitasking environment that you can happily put on your parents PC and they can LEARN FOR THEMSELVES how to use it.

so nobody learnt how to use computers until 2002? my family got its first wintel machine in 1994, with ms-dos 6.22, windows 3.1, and a custom GUI called AST works. the whole family learnt how to use it, and that includes parents. i've been using windows for 12 years now, and things *don't seem easier*

The built in help is great

all i've ever seen in there is things like "there is no more information on this error code".

file management is far easier (search/no stupid 8x3 filenames)

here's one: rename multiple files. for example, rename "001.avi" "002.avi" and "003.avi" to "file 1.avi", "file 2.avi" or "file 3.avi". or, even better, change their file extensions (e.g. from .html to .htm).

8.3 was annoying to a degree - but it's not as if people use all the letters they're allowed to put a complete description into the filename

remote desktop is a lifesaver and they don't need to learn an obscure set of commands to operate it

it's also only in XP Pro. your parents are pros?

they have a mouse and a plethora of visual prompts and cues to help them use every bit of software.

and then they start to tumble. take an example anecdote: my dad installs updates to Adobe Acrobat Reader when told to. 7.0.1 installed itself, but 6.0.something remained - icons, start menu entry, etc. he tried to uninstall 6, since it was separate in add/remove programs. which broke 7.0.1. is that an intuitive thing to have happen? helpful? simple? or just bloody stupid and counter-intuitive?

[quote]That's EASIER not just fecking different Computers have had to adapt to those who use them - and that's no longer the bedroom hacker or the under 20's.

Of course, for those desiring obscurity there's always linux

linux is only harder to use than windows if you want it to be - and your aforementionned parent user isn't going to want it to be.

[nichomach]

Sorry, but bitching about Adobe ****ing up their updates is hardly relevant when talking about Windows being easier or harder to use. Linux fans complain when vulns are attributed to Linux when they're in applications like Apache, even when Apache ships with lots of Linux distros, but are only too happy to attribute problems with apps that DON'T ship with Windows and aren't developed by MS to "Windows". Adobe are perfectly capable of screwing their apps up without any help from Uncle Bill.

As to an 802.11b USB adapter causing a stop error, crappy drivers or an underspecced USB port'd be favourite. Quite a few USB ports don't supply sufficient voltage to host powered adapters (just try plugging a Hayes USB ISDN adapter into a Latitude D600 and you'll see what I mean).

Renaming multiple files IS a pain in the bum, which is why I make sure I have the Open Command Prompt Here powertoy handy. Which is free.

Remote Assistance is available in Home Edition.

I've been using Windows for probably as long as you have, and yes, things ARE easier.

Things are a hell of a lot easier, and I haven't seen a stop error in yonks. The only time I HAVE seen them recently have been naff all to do with Windows, and a lot to do with dodgy hardware.

[dangel]

whereas i've only ever had problems. try and click on a .avi file which hasn't finished encoding yet? explorer goes tits-up. try plugging in a Belkin usb 802.11b adapter? STOP error. try using some random codec to view some video files? it works on all your PCs but one, with no clue why it doesn't work on that last one.

So badly written drivers are purely the province of the modern Windows? I'll agree that the USB stack is something easy to knack up if your an incompetent programmer.

so nobody learnt how to use computers until 2002? my family got its first wintel machine in 1994, with ms-dos 6.22, windows 3.1, and a custom GUI called AST works. the whole family learnt how to use it, and that includes parents. i've been using windows for 12 years now, and things *don't seem easier*

Things don't seem easier to you. I don't see anyone else supporting your POV on this - and frankly i'd HATE to go back to windows 3.1 (custom GUI or not) as it was a piece of **** frankly. The fact you had to reboot so bloody often is enough ALONE to rule it out.
Kudos to your family, but for the rest of mankind I think the modern UI is superior in innumerable ways.

all i've ever seen in there is things like "there is no more information on this error code".

Then you've not really used it. But then we have the same issue with our software - nobody reads the help/readmes.

8.3 was annoying to a degree - but it's not as if people use all the letters they're allowed to put a complete description into the filename

No, it wasn't merely 'annoying to a degree' it was horribly frustrating and forced people to invent all sorts of odd abbreviations for files.

it's also only in XP Pro. your parents are pros?

Yup, I bought them XP Pro - and, btw, you can ask for remote assistance on Home.

and then they start to tumble. take an example anecdote: my dad installs updates to Adobe Acrobat Reader when told to. 7.0.1 installed itself, but 6.0.something remained - icons, start menu entry, etc. he tried to uninstall 6, since it was separate in add/remove programs. which broke 7.0.1. is that an intuitive thing to have happen? helpful? simple? or just bloody stupid and counter-intuitive?

Your definition of anecdote obviously differs from mine. But on with your 'example' - in which Adobe are at fault. Why? It's their installer, it SHOULD remove previous versions of the software if necessary (this is exactly what I do when I write a windows installer).
You could argue that single directory installs with ini files were better than using the registry, but it completely disables machine-wide component updates which can be very useful (or bad in the old days of DLL hell). Have a look in Windows/winsxs for an idea of how MS are _now_ tackling this.

linux is only harder to use than windows if you want it to be - and your aforementionned parent user isn't going to want it to be.

Really? So why hasn't linux taken over? It's free after all..


Anyway, so nothings changed from this:



To this:



In terms of ease of use?

Sorry, but you're barmy



As a sidenote - if you want a GREAT filemanager then may i heartly recommend Directory Opus - one the best things to survive the demise of the Amiga.
http://www.gpsoft.com.au/ Free trial available. Configurable? You have no idea..

[TheAnimus]

is dealing with driver bugs, spyware, random conflicts and STOP errors really that much easier than the occasional IRQ conflict? different, not easier

Oh dear.

Driver model, NT, like it or not, has without a doubt the BEST hal in excistance, its also the easyest to write device drivers for, and gives you hudge flexability.

Now your complains are hialirous, all of them kernel mode issues, except spyware, reason windows has spyware? Because everyone runs it in virtually the same shape. Making it the most profitable to deploy too, mabye if windows randomly renamed files, and abandonded the use of environment variables, so programs couldn't figure out where to install that would be better eh?

As for apple doing more for computing, did they bollocks, goto any musiem of computing your likely to hear a different story, but rarely that it was apple, myself i tend to think of it been the BBC B that brought computers to the main stream. Lots of people say the amega, but acorn always have a specail place in my heart.

So the history well most people tend to think Xerox and PARC are teh same, purely beause of it been XEROX, so moaning that actually it was PARC isn't helpful.

Now iirc LISA was just a continuation of what some of the team at PARC had done, it came out in 84, but at the same time X was under dev at MIT (called at the time athina or something stupid). Now amega had workbench, which was frankly fantastic look and feal wise, but had almost as little functionality as lisa. windows had something that was ****. But it had the IBM architecture, which was more 'open' as people could design stuff and call it 100% compatable. This really brough the prices down, THIS made it more useful to home users.

Acorn had their patheticly useless aurther about 2 years later, which was ugly, but rather good, ironically they'd made one of the biggest inoovations, the 3 button mouse. Genious!

As for the 8 versions of vista, jinkies, thats confusing.

[Syn]

Windows XP Professional is £246.74 on scan for the retail version, so seeing as from the 8 versions listed, I think XP Pro is Parallel to Windows Vista Business, which which means theres Enterprise and then Ultimate above it.

I am gonna make a guess that they will charge well over £300 for Ultimate in retail, and maybe £200 for OEM? But to be honest, it could be anything. The fact that I have a dislike to Microsoft leads me to believe that they will charge loads for the thing, and we will have updates more often then what XP does. Grr, lol.

But you never know. After all this time, they might make it work? I have tried the Beta 1, and its very nice, although Spyware broke it.

damn that sure is pricy. Anyway i not intreasted in any box or manual i just need a cd and serial number those are only 2 things that matter when it comes to Windows.

Also i found OEM version of XP Pro with SP2 32-bit for £96 on overclockers.co.uk. On PCworld its going for £239 (RETAIL). Standard XP Pro is £156 Retail but then why get that?

[directhex]

Anyway, so nothings changed from this:

--snip--

To this:

--snip--

In terms of ease of use?

Sorry, but you're barmy

you're being obtuse.

first, the continuing argument that there are no problems with modern machines. let's take a random example, for running a modern game on a modern spec PC. right now, that could be, ooh, Civ4 on an XP x64 box. back in the DOS days, that could be, say, Alone In The Dark 3 on DOS 6.22. neither will "just work" - civ4 suffers from random horrible slowdown on many x64 boxes unless you use some random unofficial tool to force a change in directx reported pixel shader version. AITD3 wouldn't run without a bucket of conventional memory, as provided by memmaker (or manually with any good guide from a latter-day PC mag). is one problem easier than the other because it has a mouse in it somewhere?

hell, consider the GUI. how much of what's on the vista screenshot is truly helpful or neccessary? a parent gets a new computer, and just wants to (for example) edit a file. how do RSS feeds or silty see-through windows make that easier than "edit filename"?

it's dangerous in this game to think that just because it's *new* or *pretty*, it's neccessarily better.

[Moby-Dick]

Can we stop every thread that menitons a good or indeed bad thing about a Windows based OS turing into yet *another* Windows vs Linux debate.

There is no final solution. You just have to accept that each has its strenghts and each has its weaknesses ( contrary to popular belief I do actually quite like linux , even though I work in a 98% wintell environment , which is why I tend to know more about that side of things )

I think there are a number of people here who'd do well to keep an open mind on things.

[dangel]

you're being obtuse.

lol - pot. kettle. black. Sorry, I answered your points

first, the continuing argument that there are no problems with modern machines. let's

Sorry, i've never actually argued that - I'm not even vaguely interested in doing so.

[snip random irrelevancy]

hell, consider the GUI. how much of what's on the vista screenshot is truly helpful or neccessary? a parent gets a new computer, and just wants to (for example) edit a file. how do RSS feeds or silty see-through windows make that easier than "edit filename"?

How does a command line and a blinking cursor?
For the sake of argument - what if the file is on the desktop? All they do is double click it, file association digs up the app to edit it and they get a WYSIWYG editor. If they want to move the file they drag and drop it. If they want to rename it they right click it. If they want to delete it they drop it in the trash.

it's dangerous in this game to think that just because it's *new* or *pretty*, it's neccessarily better.

...and even more dangerous to think that we can't leverage *new* or *pretty* to be a darn sight more *helpful*. It's something I strive to do everyday in my job; in the most part I succeed.


EDIT: not sure what the whole linux comment above was about... it was mentioned only in passing. The debate, to my mind, is whether computers are easier to use and that's MSDOS versus Vista (or XP)